Compare their debut albums

[bob_32_116]

I want to know which you consider the best and worst out of these three debut albums by progressive bands:

(1) Pink Floyd - The Piper at the Gates of Dawn
(2) Genesis - From Genesis to Revelation
(3) Porcupine Tree - On the Sunday of life...

Why these three? Firstly, because I have them all in one format or other; secondly, because they have in common the fact that they all represent artists very much feeling their way, and sound very little like what the respective bands did later on which made their reputations in the world of prog. There were various reasons for this: big lineup changes, changes in management, and in the case of Sunday it's really just Steven Wilson recording under the name of a fictional band. Obviously the production on each of these albums is somewhat below par compared with what we are used to hearing on their later output

For my money, I think Sunday > FGTR > Piper.

Piper is a real mess. The good bits are very good, but there is an awful lot of noodling and some rather childish lyrics, a bit like The Wiggles might sound if they went psychedelic.

FGTR has a small number of songs that I think show reall songwriting talent. The rest of them are not great, but are a nice listen. It's best not approached as a prog album, more like good clever pop.

Sunday - well, when I first heard this, I had heard most of the later PT albums, so as you can imagine my reaction was one of WTF? Surprisingly I have got to like it quite a lot. Like Piper, it is a real hodge-podge, as you would expect considering it's basically a compilation of material previously released on cassette, but I enjoy nearly all of it, even the crazy pieces like Space Transmission. I normally skip Linton Samuel Dawson, and sometimes also Queen Quotes Crowley. Importantly, this album has It Will Rain For a Million Years, which I still consider a contender for the best closing track of any Porcupine Tree album.

Discuss.

[Facelift]

Piper is so much better than the other two, it's barely worth mentioniong. The other two aren't really even particularly good, IMO.

Piper: A-
Sunday: B-
FGTR: C+

[Paulrus]

I don't know, it's not like these three bands were the only ones who went through big changes from their early days. You could just as easily include King Crimson, Marillion, Jethro Tull and Yes in there.

And while I agree there's a progression from On the Sunday of Life to Up the Downstairs it's not THAT big of a leap. Both have Pink Floyd's fingerprints all over them, the Syd period on the former and the post-Syd era on the latter. I'd avoid making comparisons between bands when one is so clearly influenced by the other.

[progman1975]

Piper is a psychedelic - pop mindwarp....

[zravkapt]

Piper


Sunday







FGTR

[bob_32_116]

I don't know, it's not like these three bands were the only ones who went through big changes from their early days. You could just as easily include King Crimson, Marillion, Jethro Tull and Yes in there.

I already explained why I picked those particular three - because I am familiar with them, which I am not with most of the ones you list.

I'd avoid making comparisons between bands when one is so clearly influenced by the other.

Huh? I'm not allowed to compare albums by three progressive rock bands on a progressive music forum?

[Bungalow Bill]

I want to know which you consider the best and worst out of these three debut albums by progressive bands:

(1) Pink Floyd - The Piper at the Gates of Dawn
(2) Genesis - From Genesis to Revelation
(3) Porcupine Tree - On the Sunday of life...

I've never heard the PT debut. I actually like FgtR well; it's got a bit of a Bee Gees feel to it. But Piper is a momentous album, even though I agree there's some patchiness.

[bob_32_116]

I actually like FgtR well; it's got a bit of a Bee Gees feel to it.

the Bee Gees similarity is well documented. I believe it was even intentional. It's most noticeable on the singles that came out at around the same time and which appear as "bonus tracks" on my copy. "One Eyed hound" sounds eerily like the start of "To Love Somebody".Jonathan King took them under his wing and helped them out enormously, but he was basically a pop marketeer, and the guys produced "a Bee Gees pastiche" to impress him. It worked, and got them a foot in the door. Later when they started doing things more adventurous, King was sensible enough to step away and let someone else take over production - he had done his job.

[WytchCrypt]

1) Piper - a fantastic document of a time when a bands creativity was more important to a record company than how many "units" they could move...I always consider Piper & Sgt Peppers to be a matching set as they were both recorded at the same time in Abbey Road studios. Both miles ahead from what other bands were doing in '67, they opened the flood gates of pop experimentation and lead dozens of bands to think, "why can't we try something crazy too?"

2) On the Sunday - some amazing songs linked together very creatively. A little bit too long and rambling overall, but some great songs in there (Jupiter Island, Radioactive Toy, Linton Samuel Dawson...like Piper, a fantastic headphone album.

3) FGTR - very little here that I like

[Scrotum Scissor]

Piper at the Gates of Dawn is an avant-garde rock masterpiece on par with some of the *TRULY* greats, and the fact that it was a debut album renders the whole thing all the more amazing. It pretty much revolutionized the concept of psych music in the UK, but from the opposed end of Sgt. Pepper, hailing from the very floor of the underground.

It's actually completely pointless to compare this to any of the other two. The Genesis debut is a bland, weak effort at refined pop music. The debut PTree was serious fun back in the day (and different from so much else), but it hardly garnered much of a following outside of the UK neo-hippie/Stonehenge sub-subculture.

[Rufus]

Damn, can't blame Collins for ruining the first Genesis album!

[bill g]

I like much of Piper. 'See Emily Play' and 'Pow-r-toch' I really like.

Genesis to Revelation has some nice instrumental moments, piano interludes mostly. I like 'In Hiding' and 'Windows'. One song, 'The Conqueror' pretty much sucks. Other than that, its okay.

Know nothing about the first PT album. Didn't start listening to them until 'Stupid Dream'.

Some bands have really fine debuts such as ELP, Yes, Mike Oldfield, Sally Oldfield (although Mike & Sally had an older album together)and King Crimson

[Trane]

I'll probably go aginst the grain, but I find FGTR slightly superior to PatGoD, because it's more even... From piper, I only really appreciate Astronomy and Interstellar (actually, I prefer Domine's Ummagumma version) and to a lesser extent Pow R, but the rest of these whimsical and meaningless pop tunes are simply irritating... I don't find in them any of that so-called genius , nor do I find them particularly well-made. And the better one of these pop ditties Layne is not even on that album

Of course Genesis' FGTR is really not even the shadow of its future self, but I never understood why it giets so dissed around in prog circles (OK, the multitude of bad reissues don't help its image), but most of these tracks have got their part of charm....

As for PT's debut, it's a snoozefest

[happytheman]

Having only heard two of the three choices I can only comment on those... Pipers is a masterpiece debut.. on the same level as Crimsons / ELP's debuts.. Genesis to Revelation was exactly as mentioned above... a ticket to the recording studio.. nothing more or less.. it was the path that Genesis took... no apologies on their part I'm sure.. and to these ears... there's plenty of songs on there to like.. as they say.. "you gotta start somewhere"... and given the age of the band members.. this was big stuff for them..

[davis]

The good bits are very good, but there is an awful lot of noodling and some rather childish lyrics,

I'd definitely replace 'childish' with 'childlike'. and imo, 'Piper...' ranks among the best debut albums ever.

[Joe F.]

Piper is a classic, imho.

Don't care much for the other two, but I'd go with PT over Genesis.

[progeezer's ghost]

I still haven't gotten around to listening to FGtR, which is slightly strange since I really like their output from Trespass-W&W. While I definitely acknowledge PatGoD's importance in the annals of pop/rock/prog history, I personally prefer OtSoL a bit more.

[GuitarGeek]

Man, Piper is a stone cold classic. There's people who refuse to even acknowledge the existence of a post-Syd Barrett Pink Floyd. And while I think it's a dumb idea (I mean, you're gonna totally deny Ummagumma, to say nothing of Animals or Wish You Were Here?!), but I also don't think it's just hipster hysteria either.

[JKL2000]

Never hear the first PT, but give the nod to Piper. Mad songs and psych milestones that are still fascinating to listen too.

[JKL2000]

I kinda like this format for a thread though! Give us another one.

[jlneudorf]

Piper.

Regards,
Jon

[Progatron]

Piper is the clear winner here, although I enjoy FGTR very much for what it is (and many of the other songs from that period that never made it to an album). Porcupine Tree for me begins with The Sky Moves Sideways.

I kinda like this format for a thread though! Give us another one.

Peter Hammill's Fool's Mate or Van Der Graaf Generator's The Aerosol Grey Machine?

... many of the songs originate from the same era, although the ones on FM weren't recorded until '71. Aerosol does have "Octopus", "Necromancer" and "Running Back", but FM has "The Birds" and "Vision"...

[PeterG]

This is a no-brainer, Piper by a country mile!
FGTR is flipping awful IMO
PT's "debut" can't really be called their debut studio album, it has rarely been available, it was a tape compo of stuff by their "ploy" band with all the members having fake names.

[Rufus]

This is a no-brainer, Piper by a country mile!
FGTR is flipping awful IMO
PT's "debut" can't really be called their debut studio album, it has rarely been available, it was a tape compo of stuff by their "ploy" band with all the members having fake names.

^^^^^BINGO

[SteveSly]

I would go:

1. Piper
2. Sunday
3. From Genesis

As others have mentioned Piper is a masterpiece of it's style. Yes, it is childlike at times, but that is part of it's charms. Sunday is a long way from what Wilson would do later, but there is still a lot to like on it. From Genesis is just ok and they would do much better.