I'm talking about the classic line-up here. Have just been listening to the Tormato demos & there's some really strong melodies on them. A bit more development & I think the follow up to Tormato could have resulted in a classic IMO. The demos were too good to be forgotten about & some of the melodies/structure & ideas turned up on Drama & Song of Seven.
Thoughts?
Maybe, but I think they needed a strong producer and more time to mold the arrangements. Howe and Wakeman just started playing a lot of notes sometimes without having real parts imo.
There's far too much talent to think otherwise. Whether or not the personalities could keep from undermining it is another topic.
"The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"
Perhaps some "time off" would have helped... they were burned out by the time Paris sessions kicked in.. I'm one of those who loved Drama when it came out only to find out years later that some of that material was being kicked around with Jon and Rick..Originally Posted by Rufus
I'll always think they did, but a confluence of things made it impossible to realize that potential. I think at a certain point the relationships just broke down, particularly between Anderson and Howe, and it became impossible for them to do the kind of intense work and have the creative give and take necessary to really elevate the music to a top-notch level. They continued to have good ideas from the ABWH and KTA period through Magnification. But it always felt to me like the got lazy and didn't really work to hone those ideas to make them really shine like they did in the 70s.
In some ways I still think they they could put out a stunning album if they checked the egos at the door and committed themselves to really doing it, rather than just doing something "good enough.". Howe has hinted at this, and maybe they will put the kind of attention into a new effort that has been lacking since GFtO (for the "classic" lineup). Of course, Howe would never do this with and Anderson, so that's it for the "classic" line up. And who knows how committed the others are to a process like that. I don't get the sense it's worth the effort to them any more an that we'll get something much like Fly From Here, which to me just doesn't compare with their 70s stuff. Reading between the lines, I think even Howe is sort of saying "what's the point?" in doing another record like that.
So to me, it isn't an issue of age or ability, or even good ideas. They still have the chops and I think they can write the music. It's ultimately about drive, ambition, and the willingness to work as a team that are aligned in the goal of excellence. That's been the missing element since GFtO and what has kept them from realizing another "masterpiece" album. In my opinion.
Bill
By "Masterpiece" I suppose we mean "Epic" as in the sidelong tracks that classic lineup was so great at. I think Choirmaster Jon had his ear to the ground and realized that extended-multi-part epics were on the way out and no longer had any interest in leading the band there...besides, they'd already pushed that form to the limit with Tales - though I imagine they could have taken it a step farther and done a double album with sides 1 to 4 movements of a single song! If Wagner could write operas that took several days to perform, classic Yes could have written a song that spanned several albums.
I just think after Tormato the classic lineup had that "been there done that" attitude regarding extended compositions, though from a talent perspective they could have easily continued churning them out - which would have suited me just fine - though they probably would have been dropped by Atlantic for poor album sales
Check out my solo project prog band, Mutiny in Jonestown at https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/
Check out my solo project progressive doom metal band, WytchCrypt at https://wytchcrypt.bandcamp.com/
No.
Classically speaking, of course.
For crying out load, these guys are an inch away from wearing diapers again. Can we stop pining for what might've been, and just be content with what we have already? Of course if they do, might I suggest the title of "Big Geriatrics" for their comeback album.
Tormato itself would have been on that level if it had the effort that went into Gft1 put into it imo.
A Roger Dean cover alone would probably have kept it out of the cut-out bins.
I'm not even sure that would be consensus as to what constitutes the "classic" lineup. For me, it is the Fragile/Close To The Edge period.
Not necessarily. TYA is a classic Yes album and has no side long pieces. I think the issue is quality, not length or "quantity." They could easily have done an album that ranked with their best work that had no 20+ minute tracks.
I think there is a lot of truth in this. This is another of the confluent factors that played a part in Yes not releasing any more top notch material. The times changed and what they did the best was no longer in fashion. They rightfully figured "why fight it" and took the easy way out that made them lots of money. In some ways you can't fault them. It's just rock and roll after all.I think Choirmaster Jon had his ear to the ground and realized that extended-multi-part epics were on the way out and no longer had any interest in leading the band there...besides, they'd already pushed that form to the limit with Tales - though I imagine they could have taken it a step farther and done a double album with sides 1 to 4 movements of a single song! If Wagner could write operas that took several days to perform, classic Yes could have written a song that spanned several albums.
I just think after Tormato the classic lineup had that "been there done that" attitude regarding extended compositions, though from a talent perspective they could have easily continued churning them out - which would have suited me just fine - though they probably would have been dropped by Atlantic for poor album sales
That's not really the point. I don't "pine" after anything anymore. I may have 20 years ago, but at a certain point I realized the ship sailed and it wasn't going to happen.
That doesn't, however, stop me from thinking that under certian circumstances that it could happen or could have happened. Those circumstances are highly unlikely, and believe me I'm not holding my breath for it to happen at this point. But I don't buy the "geriatric case" argument. Age isn't the issue. Motivation and interpersonal relationships are, and that is changeable, though highly unlikely that it will change.
So to me, theoretically the possibility does exist, but the realistic chance of it happening is near nil. I'm fine with that. Plenty of other fish in the sea. I hope the members of the band are as copacetic about the artistic choices they made. Something tells me that some of them have some ambivalence, while others not so much.
Bill
I asked this question on Yes forum? Could the Paris material have been shaped into strong songs if the band wasn't fragile(pun intended)? I know that many people are questioning why Yes is working with RTB again. I would like to think that it was the band relationships that were to blame. Knowing that, could we have gotten another strong album with the Anderson/Squire/Howe/Wakeman/White lineup?
If a band comes up with even 1 incredible song, be grateful. Beyond that is gravy.
Sleeping at home is killing the hotel business!
You don't think so? Because age is an issue with most people. I can't do a lot of the stuff I used to. I doubt it's any different for them. It affects one's physical requirements, not to even mention their desire to put forth the effort. All of these guys are realistically about 10 years from being dead. Do you really think they wanna spend the last days of their lives trying to out-do CTTE? I don't think so.
I agree with you. That's why I think at this stage that Yes got tried of waiting for Jon to fully recover from his illness. They probably felt that it was now or never to restart the band with new(younger) blood. Now, they are no their way to recording their second album without Anderson(there are many that probably figured that Anderson would be back in Yes by now).
Well, it's the so-called "classic" lineup and we all have to deal with it. So deal.
No not really but I really do like Tormato. I understand it's not considered a classic. I think Drama just misses being considered a classic by most possibly in part because Jon and Rick aren't on it. I might even go so far as to say Drama was their last really great prog album. Kind of like their equivalent to Duke.
Do not suffer through the game of chance that plays....always doors to lock away your dreams (To Be Over)
IMO, the answer is no. That they never managed it since, IMO, rather proves the point. I like some stuff beyond CttE, but most of the output after doesn't come close. Relayer sounded great in part because Moraz was there instead of Rick, and that was pretty much the last gasp of prog greatness (again, IMO). Drama rallies on new blood too, but still... Whatever happened, happened, and it wasn't to be repeated. They have had several chances since, and none of it touches that classic period.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.
This, my good sir, is a very grounded and reasonable sentiment. The guys in Yes have given us quite a lot of music to be grateful for, surely.
I think if the question is whether the Tormato period could've produced a better album then I think yes. A lot of bands are on record as saying that they almost did too much in the 70's in terms of music and I think that may have affected the quality of the music produced. I think Tormato could be better but like so many albums, it feels like it wasn't a 100% album.
Probably the best argument one can make with the evidence at hand.
WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.
Are you saying that Fly From Here wasn't great.
I genuinely don't. Many artists become better at their craft and exhibit greater creativity as they age. For musical artists, perhaps dexterity diminishes a bit, but in the case of Yes I don't see that their ability to play has really dropped off that much. The dudes can still play. Certainly they could work in the studio to render something successfully. I have no doubt of that.
Motivation is certainly an issue, but again age isn't necessarily the cause of lack of motivation. They aren't too old to go out and tour (well, some of them aren't), which takes a lot of motivation and energy. But they seem to lack the motivation to really sit down and create intricate music or hash through the parts to get them arranged into something that is really spectacular.
Their attitude may be “been there, done that.” And that's fine, but that has little to do with age. In fact it seems they felt that way since 1981 when age wasn't really the problem. If they felt differently, then I have little doubt they could have, and still could, do something that would rival their classic material. But that is a very big IF.
Why not? They're going into the studio to do new music anyway. Why not try to make it as good as it can be? Why not put the effort in to try to make it really great? And if they are not going to put that effort in, why bother? This is exactly what Howe was hinting at last year when he talked about going into the studio, so it's clearly on some of their minds.
It's not like every moment of their lives in the next 10 years would be spent doing this anyway. It would mean a period of intense work and collaboration with an aim to pushing their personal boundaries again, something I don't think they have done in a long, long time. I think they could do it if they wanted to, but for various reasons wont. But age isn't among the reasons I'd cite.
Well, we'll all differ in what we consider their classic or “masterpiece” material. To me, Relayer and GftO are every bit a part of their classic material, in fact they are my favorite Yes albums, bookending two very different approaches. I strongly agree with you that since reforming the A/S/H/W/W line-up, their output has not approached the quality of their classic material. But I just don't agree that the fact they didn't do it, means the couldn't have done it. They had, and have, choices. The choices they made led to the products they produced, but different choices could have led to something different, and I believe potentially far better.
Bill
I'd say the KTA lineup is pretty close to classic. I really think Mind Drive is a hell of a Yes epic. Many don't feel that way but I think it's their last great track. I think the KTA2 studio disk is a damn fine Yes album from top to bottom. YMMV.
Much as I love these guys, it's tough to argue that the Paris sessions and related material could have been polished into minor masterpieces
That is not to say I don't really like some of the songs, (Friend of a Friend, Richard, High, Everybody's Song, Picasso, You can be saved), but the epics have their esteem for a reason.
When they tried to pad out That That Is and Mind Drive, the results were spotty - each has it's moments, but not he consistency of CttE or Gates
I think the suite is great, the rest not so much
Speaking of later day epics, I find it interesting that the FFW suite is so heavily penalized for having been written in the early 80's, yet Mind Drive, who's main theme is a leftover from the XZY sessions seems to be pretty well liked despite that
BG
"When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks