Marvel Comics--What IF? Coltrane didn't die-an imaginary discography

[N_Singh]

I've always loved the imaginary discography depicted here by the user named "Hot Ptah"

http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?t=37336

John Coltrane Discography 1971-82:
1971: Electronic Communication: with John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane, Sonny Sharrock, Larry Coryell, Jimi Hendrix, Michael Bloomfield, Johnny Winter, Larry Young, Chick Corea, Joe Zawinul, Herbie Hancock, Jimmy Garrison, Jack Bruce, Harvey Brooks, Rashied Ali, Billy Cobham, Lenny White, Don Alias, Tony Williams, Jack DeJohnette (all playing on every cut)

1972: Light as a Lotus Flower: John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane, Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke, Tony Williams, Airto, Flora Purim

1973: Love Devotion Surrender: John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane, Carlos Santana, John McLaughlin, Larry Young, Stanley Clarke, Tony Williams, Airto

1974: Live! With Love Devotion Surrender! (3 LP gatefold set) with same lineup as previous year

1975: Talkin' To The People: John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane, Gil Scott Heron, Doug Carn, Wah Wah Watson, Paul Jackson, Harvey Mason, Mtume

1976: The Happy Trane: John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane, Wah Wah Watson, Lonnie Liston Smith, Jaco Pastorius, Narada Michael Walden, Alex Acuna (sells 1.2 million copies)

1977: The Disco Trane: John Coltrane and a cast of thousands, produced by Donna Summers' producer (sells 3 million copies)

1978: Doin' It Again On The Disco Trane: same as previous year (sells 2.1 million copies)

1979: The Disco Trane Rides Again: same as 1977 (sells 800,000 copies)

1980: no album (spends year meditating in Nova Scotia)

1981: no album (spends year "seeking new direction", discussing many projects in jazz press--all major jazz magazines run multiple cover stories throughout the year on "Where Is Trane?" "Is Trane coming back?" etc.)

1982: Trane Is Back!!!: John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane, Pete Cosey, Dominique Gaumont, Michael Henderson, Al Foster, Mtume (album leads to bitter denunciations by Young Lions of jazz world, who see him as "the problem with jazz")

[wideopenears]

the Happy Trane...bwahaaaahaaa!!! Sells 1.2 Million copies! Bwahaahaahaaaaa!!!

That's some funny stuff....I only hope it would not have been true.

[walt]

Well, there is a picture of Coltrane playing tenor sax with an electronic attachment(not on stage,in his home,afaik).Seems reasonable to speculate that Coltrane might have embraced electronics,if not on his own horn,then with the instrumentation of his backing band.

What if..........

[Staun]

Not a jazz fan but there are a few prog bands I might like to do this with. Let's see........

[Jerjo]

What if Hulk and Miles got into a fight?

[polmico]

I prefer the DC Comics version.

The Fight to Save Earth from Star Warriors: Coltrane vs. Ali

OR

Race to the End of the Universe: The Flash vs. Coltrane

[N_Singh]

I prefer the DC Comics version.

The Fight to Save Earth from Star Warriors: Coltrane vs. Ali

OR

Race to the End of the Universe: The Flash vs. Coltrane

I think Ali would have Bumayed him in the first one.

The 2nd one, however? Everyone knows that Trane was the fastest saxophonist in town. If even Johnny Griffin said "no mas, no max", the Flash has absolutely NO CHANCE.

[Mister Triscuits]

The Fight to Save Earth from Star Warriors: Coltrane vs. Ali

001819b4_medium.jpg

[No Pride]

1977: The Disco Trane: John Coltrane and a cast of thousands, produced by Donna Summers' producer (sells 3 million copies)

1978: Doin' It Again On The Disco Trane: same as previous year (sells 2.1 million copies)

1979: The Disco Trane Rides Again: same as 1977 (sells 800,000 copies)

Blasphemy! And not particularly funny either. Coltrane never did and never would've sold out.

And why is Alice Coltrane on most of these albums? If Trane would've ever done anything that might be construed by some as being commercial, I think it would've been a reunion with Elvin Jones, McCoy Tyner and Jimmy Garrison.

Sigh...

[wideopenears]

I like to think that, Ernie, as well....

And honestly, neither Wayne Shorter nor Miles Davis, the two musicians I think we could argue might equal Coltrane's status, never "sold out" in my opinion, though some of the snobs may have thought otherwise. Heck, Zawinul neither...and maybe not even Hancock.

The Happy Trane was pretty funny though...and I could see that being a killer album. The subsequent disco stuff, nah.....

[No Pride]

I like to think that, Ernie, as well....

And honestly, neither Wayne Shorter nor Miles Davis, the two musicians I think we could argue might equal Coltrane's status, never "sold out" in my opinion, though some of the snobs may have thought otherwise. Heck, Zawinul neither...and maybe not even Hancock.

The closest Trane would've come would've been possibly guesting as a sideman on Joni Mitchell and/or Steely Dan albums. Maybe Sting too.

Hancock... well, maybe "Rockit" was a bit of a sell out. But I don't think his recent albums like "Possibilties" or "The Imagine Project" were necessarily meant to be commercial; I think his intentions to work with artists outside of the jazz genre were a sincere attempt to do a form of artistic exploration, despite the fact that many of those artists are commercially successful. Some of the results were pretty satisfying! And no matter who he worked with or what kind of music they were playing, Herbie was always just being Herbie.

[wideopenears]

I agree....and I like Rockit, actually. Of course, some folks said the first "Headhunters" album was a sell-out.

Some folks compare the Herbie stuff to the Carlos Santana route...but I don't think so.

[N_Singh]

Sonny Rollins recorded songs with a disco beat in the 70s, I believe. Miles covered Michael Jackson and Cyndi Lauper. Which I liked. Anyway, it wasn't my list. I do think that Trane was thinking that his avant guard stuff was like heading over the cliff, and I speculate that he would walk away from the cliff. Perhaps simplifying his thing in some way.

[No Pride]

Some folks compare the Herbie stuff to the Carlos Santana route...but I don't think so.

I don't either. I think Santana's was a brilliant and successful plan to revive his career, but I strongly suspect Herbie's motives were more pure and artistically driven.

Sonny Rollins recorded songs with a disco beat in the 70s, I believe. Miles covered Michael Jackson and Cyndi Lauper. Which I liked. Anyway, it wasn't my list. I do think that Trane was thinking that his avant guard stuff was like heading over the cliff, and I speculate that he would walk away from the cliff. Perhaps simplifying his thing in some way.

I know it wasn't your list, N_Singh!

Sonny Rollins appeared on The Rolling Stones' hit, "Waiting on a Friend," from the Tattoo You album. I don't think he was even credited on the liner notes. Hope he got paid handsomely for it.

As for Miles, well, "Human Nature" and "Time After Time" are just great songs, pop or not. At least he chose his pop covers wisely!

As for what Trane would've gone on to do, it's anybody's guess, just as it is with Hendrix. The only thing I think we could count on in both cases is that things never would've remained stagnant. These were artists who were constantly searching and experimenting and like Miles, they would've continued to reinvent themselves. But exactly how they would've gone about it... sadly, we'll never know.

[GuitarGeek]

Hancock... well, maybe "Rockit" was a bit of a sell out. But I don't think his recent albums like "Possibilties" or "The Imagine Project" were necessarily meant to be commercial; I think his intentions to work with artists outside of the jazz genre were a sincere attempt to do a form of artistic exploration, despite the fact that many of those artists are commercially successful. Some of the results were pretty satisfying! And no matter who he worked with or what kind of music they were playing, Herbie was always just being Herbie.

If one wants to accuse Herbie of selling out, it actually started in the mid 70's, with Headhunters. He brought in a funk oriented rhythm section and that drove the music in a different direction. And there were a couple albums there that preceded Future Shock (the one with Rockit on it) that I think were more of a sell out, where he had more prominent vocals (with a vocoder, no less!).

Rockit, I think was actually much more forward looking that a lot of people seem to remember. That turntable solo is kinda innovative, you don't hear that kind of thing often on records, not even in hip hop music (at least, not the hip hop music I remember hearing). I also remember seeing an interview with Herbie once where he explained that he deliberately structured the melody to emphasize the 9th because you didn't hear those kind of intervallic jumps in "pop music". If Herbie had really wanted to "sell out", he'd have followed the path chosen by the likes of George Duke, Mtume, Stanley Clarke and Narada Michael-Walden, all of whom made straight up vocal oriented R&B/pop records. And I'll take Rockit over Chick Corea's Electrick Band albums, too!

[No Pride]

If one wants to accuse Herbie of selling out, it actually started in the mid 70's, with Headhunters. He brought in a funk oriented rhythm section and that drove the music in a different direction. And there were a couple albums there that preceded Future Shock (the one with Rockit on it) that I think were more of a sell out, where he had more prominent vocals (with a vocoder, no less!).

Rockit, I think was actually much more forward looking that a lot of people seem to remember. That turntable solo is kinda innovative, you don't hear that kind of thing often on records, not even in hip hop music (at least, not the hip hop music I remember hearing). I also remember seeing an interview with Herbie once where he explained that he deliberately structured the melody to emphasize the 9th because you didn't hear those kind of intervallic jumps in "pop music". If Herbie had really wanted to "sell out", he'd have followed the path chosen by the likes of George Duke, Mtume, Stanley Clarke and Narada Michael-Walden, all of whom made straight up vocal oriented R&B/pop records. And I'll take Rockit over Chick Corea's Electrick Band albums, too!

I don't want to accuse Herbie of selling out. Headhunters may have driven the music in a different direction, but I don't consider the intent to necessarily be one of commercial success. And with the follow up, "Thrust," he actually took funk in a new direction, where it had the kind of looseness and band interaction usually associated with straight-ahead jazz. "Actual Proof" from that album epitomizes that.

RE: Chick's Elektric Band: Okay, some of it was schlock but some of it is a very deep, intense and progressive brand of fusion. I actually prefer their zenith, "Inside Out" over any of the RTF albums post "Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy."

[Trane]

the Happy Trane...bwahaaaahaaa!!! Sells 1.2 Million copies! Bwahaahaahaaaaa!!!

That's some funny stuff....I only hope it would not have been true.

That would've been me

001819b4_medium.jpg

Mohamed Rashied Ali

Blasphemy! And not particularly funny either. Coltrane never did and never would've sold out.

And why is Alice Coltrane on most of these albums? If Trane would've ever done anything that might be construed by some as being commercial, I think it would've been a reunion with Elvin Jones, McCoy Tyner and Jimmy Garrison.

Sigh...

ease up Ernie it's obviously a joke... but it was rather pleasant one until you got to the disco trilogy

RE: sell-out.... Well the Ballads/Ellington/Hartman Impulse! trilogy was somewhat of a sell-out

[Trane]

Mmmhhh!!!... many 60"'s jazz artistes that didn't take the pure fusion route (I'll include Tyner in there) either sold out in the 70's via the soul-jazz genre (Donald Byrd, Andrew Hill, etc...) or simply faded away...

As for what Trane would've gone on to do, it's anybody's guess, just as it is with Hendrix. The only thing I think we could count on in both cases is that things never would've remained stagnant. These were artists who were constantly searching and experimenting and like Miles, they would've continued to reinvent themselves. But exactly how they would've gone about it... sadly, we'll never know.

Well, the first few suggestions on that lists are about as good/realistic a guess as you'd probably come up with...

[Jeremy Bender]

About a year before he died, Coltrane played two concerts in Japan that have been released as....wait for it....Live in Japan. It's one of the most trying listening experiences I've ever had, I still can't believe I made through all four CD's. Take a look at the timings:

Disc One
Afro Blue (Mongo Santamaría) - 38:49
Peace on Earth - 26:25

Disc Two
Crescent - 54:33

Disc Three
Peace on Earth - 25:05
Leo - 44:49

Disc Four
My Favorite Things (Richard Rodgers / Oscar Hammerstein II) - 57:19

Man, those seemingly endless solos.......

I bring this up because I don't think he could have taken his music much further "out" than he did in the year he had left, I suspect he would have picked up on the funk and soul grooves like Miles did.

[syncopatico]

I don't want to accuse Herbie of selling out. Headhunters may have driven the music in a different direction, but I don't consider the intent to necessarily be one of commercial success. And with the follow up, "Thrust," he actually took funk in a new direction, where it had the kind of looseness and band interaction usually associated with straight-ahead jazz. "Actual Proof" from that album epitomizes that.

I agree with you about Thrust and 'Actual Proof'. But it was a major disappointment that Herbie did turn toward a much simpler, more mainstream commercial approach with the followup to Thrust, Man-Child, which is a pretty lightweight record. Mike Clark was told specifically by Herbie's manager David Rubinson (and to which Herbie approved) to tone down the polyrhythmics and play much more simpler drumbeats in the hopes of selling more records to the 'average' listener. It is no surprise that Mike Clark quit Herbie's band in 1976 after the lameness of Man-Child and the decision to go in that "radio-friendly" direction. Which was really a shame after the innovative ground-breaking funk fusion music on Thrust (and Flood) which is still a major influence on rhythmically-oriented musicians to this day.

[Trane]

Man, those seemingly endless solos.......

I bring this up because I don't think he could have taken his music much further "out" than he did in the year he had left, I suspect he would have picked up on the funk and soul grooves like Miles did.

The only person that ever dared telling him about his solo was Elvin, who would throw a stick in Trane's back to remind him the other three were sitting bored ..; Trane closed his solos with 20 seconds after the stick reminder

I'm not so sure Trane would've followed the Miles route... he'd gone too far ou to do the JR/JF/F

I'd have guessed he would've gone more African/world or in Alice's direction (Saatchi and Ptah or even Consciousness)

[wideopenears]

Conjecture, all of it.

Interesting, though.....when we turn it back on ourselves, it tells us a great deal about what we value.

[Jeremy Bender]

The only person that ever dared telling him about his solo was Elvin, who would throw a stick in Trane's back to remind him the other three were sitting bored ..; Trane closed his solos with 20 seconds after the stick reminder

Bravo Elvin!

I'm not so sure Trane would've followed the Miles route... he'd gone too far out to do the JR/JF/F

Translation please.

I'd have guessed he would've gone more African/world or in Alice's direction (Saatchi and Ptah or even Consciousness)

That makes a lot of sense.

[wideopenears]

Coltrane went too far out to do JR (Jazz Rock)/JF (Jazz Funk?)/F (Fusion).

By the way, I'm not sure about this......have you heard Chick's recordings with Circle?

[Trane]

Translation please.

Coltrane went too far out to do JR (Jazz Rock)/JF (Jazz Funk?)/F (Fusion).

You're hired

By the way, I'm not sure about this......have you heard Chick's recordings with Circle?

Nope, now that you mention it, I haven't

wotsitlike??