Countering the dominant narrative: "Punk did not kill prog."

[Splicer]

I agree with the comment in this thread about FM Rock radio which was already in the mid-late 70s moving away from DJs choosing their own playlists to a codified playlist of set numbers of songs a week. I worked with Richard Neer (after his gig at WNEW-FM in NYC and when he was a sports talker at WFAN) and he would talk about this exact thing. He said that instead of what was played being "Rock" no matter the subgenre - all mixed together - it started to splinter. You weren't hearing Joni Mitchell into Beatles into Elvis Costello into Kansas. All of a sudden it started to become "Classic Rock".

[veteranof1000psychicwars]

I don't think it is any more complicated than just a "corrective" that occurs in the industry marketplace every few years that seems to be based around what the music consumer perceives as 'authentic". So you have:

The Beatles, and others, "killing off" teen idols;
The Band, and others, "killing off" psychedelia;
Grunge "killing off" hair metal;
and so on, including punk "killing off" prog.

To me it just seems that rock has gone through cycles every 7 or 8 years and things fall out of fashion. It may be a generational thing, where each generation claims a style of rock to be the "real shit", more sincere than the style that came before.

[mozo-pg]

None of this is important, and we're all going to die.

I like both kinds of music. Prog and punk.

- Love the Cramps and Husker Du. Husker Du knew how to play their instruments, as did the Clash. I saw the Ramones twice and they were powerful live and fun. Dead Kennedys had intelligent, biting commentaries and The Replacements were awesome, very melodic (as were Husker Du). I also like the Dead Milkman on their satire on ABWH (Anderson, Walkmen, Buttholes and How!). You shouldn't take prog too seriously.

This just scratched the surface.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

- Love the Cramps and Husker Du. Husker Du knew how to play their instruments, as did the Clash. I saw the Ramones twice and they were powerful live and fun. Dead Kennedys had intelligent, biting commentaries and The Replacements were awesome, very melodic (as were Husker Du). I also like the Dead Milkman on their satire on ABWH (Anderson, Walkmen, Buttholes and How!). You shouldn't take prog too seriously.

This just scratched the surface.

Indeed .... I would certainly put X on that list, as well as the Clash. Possibly Black Flag. And -- if you count them as punk -- Green Day.

[Trane]

I'm more the type Prog Committed Suicide conspiracy

I thought the record companies no longer throwing money at anyone in the mid-70s had a lot to do with it.

That started in 1973 with the first oil crisis, IMHO. Many record companies started reducing the weight of the petroleum-based vinyl and in the process allowed also less gatefold sleeves . This reduced not only the weight of the shipped items, but also the volume (single sleeve), which reduced the transport costs (also petroleum).

And the higher cost of vinyl - records cost more to make, so The Biz went with acts that sounded like proven hitmakers, rather than outside bets that might develop a solid following.

Yeah, when the old guys wearing lab coats in the studio were evicted and let the young musicians in the mid60's, it started the best

However, by 75/6, the industry came back out with two AOR (Adult Oriented Rock/Radios) that eliminated the ancient AOR (Album Oriented Radios) that weren't making any money.

I've got a counter argument: Punk Didn't Kill Prog (By Itself). There were other factors brewing in the late '70s.

1. The rise of AOR with Boston, Foreigner and others who combined Hard Rock's crunch with Pop's Melodies and strong hooks.
2. Changes in broadcasting; the free form FM Radio formats that embraced the early '70s work of Yes, ELP were changing and they were looking for more accessible Rock Music in order to get better ratings.
3. The Rise of Heartland Rock which featured Old School '60s Rock Music with emotional/narrative lyrics. Bruce Springsteen, Bob Seger and others were embraced by Rock's Critical Establishment in the late '70s (while they derided Prog Artists).
4. Changes in the Record Business; as another poster pointed out, it was costing more money to record & market Rock Music as the '70s wore on and artists were being encouraged to record music that had the potential to reach a broader audience.

Anyway, that's my take on this subject.

a very pertinent analyses that I came up to in the 90's.

The 70s rock media championed punk while hating on prog. The media's megaphone fashioned a disproportional perception of the popularity of punk and the death of prog.

That said, I agree with most of the analyses from the previous posts.

British crowds were always more volatile, loving to burn what they previously adored, helped by the hype (and very strong competition) of three weekly music press (NME, Sounds and LMM). North Am and to a lesser extent Continental Europe were more conservative, but I also don't remember weekly press, just monthly press.

I was in high school in the late 70s-early 80s and I knew a lot of people who didn't hate on Punk. Rather, they hated on Disco music (which had already simply been absorbed into Pop). In retrospect, rich white people Disco of that era was a coke-fueled happening but it didn't kill anything. The only crossover was probably middle-aged men trying to get laid who probably listened to Rock music otherwise.

Yup, in Toronto, it was definitely the Disco Sucks and punk was mostly alright - I thought that "London is Drowning, and I live By The River" was very much down my alley as a 15 y-o. I was also very much into Reggae (and not just The Police) and Ska (and not just Madness)/ Marley ruled and would be joined by Steel Pulse and Third World in my reggae pantheon.

However, in Montreal, disco literally swiped everything and wiped the floor with prog by 79/80. In matter of months, prog was killed (most bands folded) and that +/- happened after the sovereignty referendum of 1980.

[Progbear]

The 70s rock media championed punk while hating on prog. The media's megaphone fashioned a disproportional perception of the popularity of punk and the death of prog.

This is the main reason for the "punk killed prog" narrative. There's quite a lot of historical revisionism regarding punk's commercial importance by the music critics who fell in love with the genre in the 70s. Its impact on 70s rock has been greatly inflated over the years. Even in the UK, where punk acts did enjoy some commercial success, it came across more like an explosive fad than a musical revolution.

[revelogicPA]

on purely street love, as a musician :


I agree with my contemporaries in folks like Mike Watt, Henry Rollins, Thurston Moore, Steve Albini etc in that punk rock allowed music inclined kids like us a way into playing and performing.

up until the early 80s we were all practicing 'La Villa Strangiato' etc and some of us just weren't that inclined. or good!

Prog suggests 'ability' = exclusion while Punk suggests 'want' = community.

most Prog folk see music as a goal

Punk sees music as a pure expression



for me, 1980s hard core was too maschismo and pointed. "rah-rah". it was only when the Butthole Surfers and Sonic Youth, Husker Du and the Minutemen, SST and Touch and Go etc provided some art to the punk ethos that I could fully embrace the current music of the day. I still bought many 'Prog' records the day of sale and continued to see the big arena show

but it was 'punk' that was mine


---


the arguments are all consumer comments in this thread don't even touch the categories of touring and self releasing one's own music. that is the true legacy of punk and Black Flag etc


revisionist indeed. not even close

[vostoklake]

I thought the record companies no longer throwing money at anyone in the mid-70s had a lot to do with it.

Yep. Punk didn't kill prog. The economy did. The paradigmatic example was ELP burning a fortune taking an orchestra on tour. A punk band could finish an album in a week and it would quite often be better quality (eg early Gary Numan). The bands who were survived were those who could streamline musically and financially (Yes, Genesis), or take on the "new influences" such as world music or minimalism (King Crimson), until prog between "retro-cool" in the early 90s.

[Digital_Man]

I'm going to disagree somewhat. I think punk played a role in prog's downfall but prog probably would have gone into hibernation anyway.

[Steve983]

The more you think about it wasn't it amazing that Prog was so successful and sold millions in the first place?

[revporl]

Most of the big prog bands were still, by most sane measure, continued to be huge throughout the late 70's and early 80's. Genesis, Floyd, Yes, Rush, Crimson, ELP etc didn't find themselves playing small clubs (unless they wanted to), and even the neo-prog bands of the early 80's found a similar level that lesser known prog bands of the 70's would have experienced. Some of them went on to be quite big in their own right, Marillion being the obvious example.

I don't think the idea that prog was killed in any way was quite right, although it might have been harder for prog bands to break through or have access to the student circuit in the same way that they had pre 1976, but many of the late 70's prog bands were extremely derivative of the earlier stuff anyway, and probably didn't deserve to!

[Dana5140]

Might be time to read Bill Martin again and understand what he means by the blues orthodoxy in relation to prog. Bill makes a reasoned case that critics had an affinity toward blues forms because they could understand it, and they had an affinity to punk because they could play it.

[TheH]

Actually it was Tom Jones who killed Prog

[3LockBox]

I actually saw this one a week ago. And he makes an extremely strong point, except that he really doesn't. Can't folks stop pretending that PE never happened and set things straight?

I only listen to Ice-T and Ice Cube now. They're so contemporary and shit.

Ice-T wants to sell me a car warranty plan

[progmatist]

^^ I actually love the commercial in which Ice-T is sitting next to a kids' lemonade stand. Guys would drive by yelling "Yo Ice-T!" Tracey responds "Lemonade......read the sign."

[Trane]

I think Andy Edwards is the most thoughtful commentator on prog and fusion on youtube. Very idiosyncratic. Even the click bait leads to interesting analysis.

I just watched that vid again, (I'd forgotten almost everything since), and I think this dude's analysis is just bollocks.
This dude is not afraid of revisionism and re-reading and picking elements into musical chronology to fit his theory.
he talks of "prog" as if it was some kind living thing (a being?), looking consciously to survive, planning carefully its survival.

Firstly, I don't think, the dominant narrative today is that Punk killed Prog - that was more like long time ago.

It was probably more that "Disco killed prog" in many places.

Another factor may be the general public simply grew tired of the excesses of prog. Much like they grew tired of the excesses of hair metal in the early 90s. When it was replaced by Grunge, a variation on punk. Some prog survived, even prospered into the 80s by adopting a more 80s sound. Likewise bands like Metallica and Megadeth survived, even prospered by adopting a more alternative sound.

cyclical events, really.
Most bands grind themselves into a creative stop after 6 to 10 years together. They've said everything they had to say.
For a lot of bands, it was over by the second or third album.

Most of the big prog bands were still, by most sane measure, continued to be huge throughout the late 70's and early 80's. Genesis, Floyd, Yes, Rush, Crimson, ELP etc didn't find themselves playing small clubs (unless they wanted to), and even the neo-prog bands of the early 80's found a similar level that lesser known prog bands of the 70's would have experienced. Some of them went on to be quite big in their own right, Marillion being the obvious example.

I don't think the idea that prog was killed in any way was quite right, although it might have been harder for prog bands to break through or have access to the student circuit in the same way that they had pre 1976, but many of the late 70's prog bands were extremely derivative of the earlier stuff anyway, and probably didn't deserve to!

I'm not sure Marillion ever played to small crowds in the early 80's (especially in the UK). I can't remember where Recital For A script was shot, but it wasn't a basement club.

BTW, Tull played in the hockey arena circuit throughout the 80's as well.

[Splicer]

What's honestly "killing" Prog for me right now is one after another album of downbeat or mournful sounding music. I listen to new stuff all the time. One after another to see if anything catches my ear. Occasionally I'll hear more upbeat music of varying quality. However, I hear so much stuff that just sounds like someone going through emotional distress that I just can't. Give me an anthem. Give me a positive message. Right now I find myself always going back to the same four Flower Kings albums on top of the 70s classics with a few 80s Genesis albums in there as well. Not to say that I don't like emotions occasionally - IQ has been a favorite at least through The Seventh House which is really emotional. I like their sound in that era. It's just too much of what I'm hearing (and I don't really like Metal or Math Rock and stuff like that) is like a minor key song about loss or being lonely or whatever. I can't. I need like some "Parallels" by Yes song. Get my heartbeat going and feeling elated.

[Steve983]

I'm not sure Marillion ever played to small crowds in the early 80's (especially in the UK). I can't remember where Recital For A script was shot, but it wasn't a basement club.

Marillion got signed by EMI in the second half of 1982, just earlier that year they were playing small pubs and clubs and anywhere that would have them. Recital Of The Script was filmed at Hammersmith Odeon over two nights in April '83, interesting because those shows were sold out before Script was even released such was their sudden rise to popularity.