ELPowell Box Set

[JJ88]

I find that album nigh unlistenable. It's just, I don't know, not very interesting to me. Keith's synth sounds are underwhelming, too. Whatever he had, it doesn't sound like his ELPowell rig.

I like 'Talkin' Bout', 'Desda La Vida', 'Runaway' (straight-up AOR, but good on those terms), 'You Do Or You Don't' and 'On Our Way Home'. Most of those- except 'Runaway'- have enough of Emerson's DNA in there for me. Maybe it's because my expectations were rock bottom anyway. I suppose it's not 'ELP' either so it can be judged as a separate project.

With ELPowell/Lakeland tape. Is there a reason why the releases- including this one- do not feature 'Still You Turn Me On'/'Watching Over You', 'Learning To Fly' or 'The Miracle'?

[battema]

I like the sound of ELPowell, reverb and all. Cozy's drums sound thunderous. Keith used the Kurzweil K250 extensively and had some great sounds on hand. I even like "Love Blind" and "Step Aside"!

+1. I don't think it's the most musically accomplished thing EL"P" did, but ELPowell is the album I revisit most often. Wouldn't change a thing about the production.

[JAMOOL]

There are some semi-official boots of the 3 tour out there which I thought were really good. I don't really like the "To the Power of 3" album either but once they started playing the classic ELP instrumentals it really brings the house down. Plus there's a pretty bonkers (perhaps drunk?) crowd.

[MudShark22]

There are some semi-official boots of the 3 tour out there which I thought were really good. I don't really like the "To the Power of 3" album either but once they started playing the classic ELP instrumentals it really brings the house down. Plus there's a pretty bonkers (perhaps drunk?) crowd.

That could be the NYC show that was broadcast on WNEW

[Splicer]

I think they missed the boat with "Talkin' Bout" by not having the lyrics go, "Talkin' bout you/Talkin' bout me/Talkin' 'bout 3"

YEAAAAHHHHHHH!

[dropforge]

[Man In The Mountain]

There are some semi-official boots of the 3 tour out there which I thought were really good. I don't really like the "To the Power of 3" album either but once they started playing the classic ELP instrumentals it really brings the house down.

There are two official "3" live concert releases. Live at The Ritz NY, and Live in Boston. Yeah, I really enjoyed seeing 3 live at the Vic in Chicago, more so than ELPowell. It just seemed Emerson had more freedom to expand and solo - he was having fun, and they covered all the great ELP instrumentals. Where in ELPowell, the show was very ridged and staged. Or it could be Emo just enjoyed not being around around Greg, like when he played with Marc Bonilla he seemed so much happier.

[JAMOOL]

also gives you a good idea of when Emerson's hand issues started happening - I assumed he was going steadily downhill in the 80s, but those 3 live shows have him playing just as fast and wild as ever. big difference between that and the reformed ELP Royal Albert Hall set. ditto with the Powell band and Lake's voice. they really did reform at the worst possible time.

[JJ88]

^Same with the final High Voltage reunion in 2010 really. Just bad timing. Maybe in the early-mid 2000s, it probably would have been better. The three of them were all gigging fairly regularly individually during that period, and (from what I've heard) sounding pretty good. I guess personalities got in the way again.

In The Hot Seat is a puzzler, in the sense that you wonder why it happened. The first 'comeback album' Black Moon already hadn't set the world alight. It was recorded after Emerson had just had his first round of surgery. And the producer was obviously a poor fit. It didn't even make the charts.

[JAMOOL]

right - those Keith Emerson Band shows circa 2007 or so were pretty good - it sounded like he could play again...Lake's voice of course never returned to what it was, but he adjusted to his lower register and sounded a lot less strained than he did in the 90s.

In the Hot Seat I think was purely a contractual obligation album

[jefftiger]

right - those Keith Emerson Band shows circa 2007 or so were pretty good - it sounded like he could play again...Lake's voice of course never returned to what it was, but he adjusted to his lower register and sounded a lot less strained than he did in the 90s.

Emerson's KE Band Live in Moscow (2008) DVD/Bluray showed him having fun, even though it was clear that he was having issues with his hands. This had a hugely different vibe compared to the High Voltage reunion show, where he seemed much less comfortable.

[Man In The Mountain]

Emerson's KE Band Live in Moscow (2008) DVD/Bluray showed him having fun, even though it was clear that he was having issues with his hands. This had a hugely different vibe compared to the High Voltage reunion show, where he seemed much less comfortable.

So true. Keith had such kismet with Marc Bonilla. And I think Keith playing in that KEB was liberating for him because they were so tight, he could just glide through performances with them, plus not be bothered with egos off stage. They were all on Keith's team. You could clearly see the friendship and joy of performing together. On the other hand, playing with the ever-disagreeable Greg who was struggling to even remember what notes to play, and Carl who is all business and rolling his eyes at both of them while rushing tempos... really High Voltage was just a forced reunion.

[vmartell]

Loved "Touch and Go" back in the day - so powerful - Cozy's cannon blast drumming, Keith was still in good shape and the arrangement of course... those fanfares, pure ELP! And Greg still sounded a lot like the Greg of the 70s... Still, well, it was an ELP for the 80s, but the inclusion of "Mars" and side one of the album... thinking it was a viable ELP for the 80s... While I did not dislike Black Moon, enjoyed ELPowell a lot more...

[gallen1964]

Loved "Touch and Go" back in the day - so powerful - Cozy's cannon blast drumming, Keith was still in good shape and the arrangement of course... those fanfares, pure ELP! And Greg still sounded a lot like the Greg of the 70s... Still, well, it was an ELP for the 80s, but the inclusion of "Mars" and side one of the album... thinking it was a viable ELP for the 80s... While I did not dislike Black Moon, enjoyed ELPowell a lot more...

High Voltage seemed a tense affair for ELP , not least due to time pressure due to overruns and the end having to finish on pain of fine at 1030 . I found Carl’s quote about E and L not being as match fit as he was , bit strange . They had toured as a duo and it seemed to go well . Also there are some clear drum / tempo issues on the evening not least during the Karn Evil 9 opener .

[JJ88]

Also there are some clear drum / tempo issues on the evening not least during the Karn Evil 9 opener .

Indeed, it wasn't anyone's finest moment- including Palmer.

But a festival for a band's first gig in 12 years (or whatever) was obviously not ideal. I suppose Emerson/Lake's duo shows were the 'soft launch', but that was also musically more low-key.

Loved "Touch and Go" back in the day - so powerful - Cozy's cannon blast drumming, Keith was still in good shape and the arrangement of course... those fanfares, pure ELP! And Greg still sounded a lot like the Greg of the 70s...

Yes. For instance there's still that edge in his vocal in the opening lines of 'The Score'.

Powell's style is different to Palmer's, but he did a very credible job.

[Man In The Mountain]

But a festival for a band's first gig in 12 years (or whatever) was obviously not ideal. I suppose Emerson/Lake's duo shows were the 'soft launch', but that was also musically more low-key.

Carl is used to playing with young speed demons, like Paul B. I think it was hard for Carl to readjust his tempos for the senior citizens. I dunno, Carl has very little patience, he had no desire to tour with those guys again - except as younger versions of themselves, apparently.

[revporl]

I'm looking forward to this as much for the liner notes as anything. It's a personal favourite of mine, the best thing they did since BSS by a long chalk and infinitely better than either of the reunion albums with Palmer. Such powerful production too and I think Mars might be their best classical reinterpretation (although it's really just a copy of Powells solo version of it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SPjut6EGeM

Heresy I know, but I think Cozy was a better fit for E and L than Palmer ever was, I think all of the 70's albums would have been improved by him.

[gearHed289]

That High Voltage show is painful to watch. Keith was clearly having some trouble playing certain parts. My impression of Palmer is that he doesn't listen. He's just in his own world doing his thing and not paying attention to or interacting with the other musicians on stage. This is compounded by his tempo issues. As a bass player, I hate that.

[JAMOOL]

I think he's always been like that, even on the Welcome Back live album you can tell the others are getting tired during Karn Evil 9 but he will not stop doing his thing

[JJ88]

That High Voltage show is painful to watch. Keith was clearly having some trouble playing certain parts. My impression of Palmer is that he doesn't listen. He's just in his own world doing his thing and not paying attention to or interacting with the other musicians on stage. This is compounded by his tempo issues. As a bass player, I hate that.

You look at what was and wasn't played in the set and it's obviously fairly tailored, which is understandable really. So things like 'A Farewell To Arms' were in. Lake did play that one (and 'Footprints In The Snow') in his solo 2000s shows. It's OK, but it doesn't seem the most obvious choice of song for a 'greatest hits' festival set.

Palmer has always rushed tempos. They really played at breakneck speed in the earlier 70s and it's Palmer who's driving that. 'Hoedown' can sometimes be a real mess.

I think he's always been like that, even on the Welcome Back live album you can tell the others are getting tired during Karn Evil 9 but he will not stop doing his thing

I always forget that is an awkward one live, because it keeps shifting key. The 1st Impression/Part 2 is still in the studio key, but the other vocal parts were downtuned.

[Sputnik]

Palmer has always rushed tempos. They really played at breakneck speed in the earlier 70s and it's Palmer who's driving that. 'Hoedown' can sometimes be a real mess.

The issue of Palmer "rushing" has been discussed a lot here. While it's true that his tempos fluctuate in some cases, it's pretty clear that he's doing that intentionally, and he's said as much. He often speeds up certain sections, but then returns to the original tempo. Perhaps the easiest example of this to point to is "Heat of the Moment," where the chorus picks up tempo then returns to the original tempo for the verses.

As far as "Hoedown" live, Emerson sets the tempo on that, not Palmer. I think they both liked to play it a breakneck speed, and it does sort of spoil the song, but Emerson is a much of a culprit here as Palmer. The idea that Palmer is rushing tempos against the wishes of the rest of the band (Emerson in particular) is ludicrous. This was their approach, and their catalog is replete with examples of occasional pushed tempos that return to slower tempos, and songs that maintain constant tempos. Palmer could, and did, do it both ways, and did it with intent and with the consent of the rest of the band who had to play along with those tempos as well.

Whether you like that intent or not is one thing, but blaming Palmer for "rushing uncontrollably" is simply wrong.

Bill

[JJ88]

Whether you like that intent or not is one thing, but blaming Palmer for "rushing uncontrollably" is simply wrong.

I'm not sure I said that.

The version of Pictures... within that Manticore Special film is another example of what I'm talking about. Really hell-for-leather.

[Sputnik]

The version of Pictures... within that Manticore Special film is another example of what I'm talking about. Really hell-for-leather.

Yes, they played fast back then. They all played fast. Laying the blame for this solely on Palmer is ridiculous, as is accusing Palmer of having "tempo issues," as someone else said. This is how they played together. I don't always love it either, so I might, at times, criticize the band for some questionable artistic choices, but I don't falsely interpret that as Palmer's inability to play. If he's rushing tempos, he's doing it intentionally, and with the knowledge and consent of the other band members, Emerson in particular.

Bill

[Conti]

Yes, they played fast back then. They all played fast. Laying the blame for this solely on Palmer is ridiculous, as is accusing Palmer of having "tempo issues," as someone else said. This is how they played together. I don't always love it either, so I might, at times, criticize the band for some questionable artistic choices, but I don't falsely interpret that as Palmer's inability to play. If he's rushing tempos, he's doing it intentionally, and with the knowledge and consent of the other band members, Emerson in particular.

Bill

^Intentional or not, group decision or not, as a bass player myself I consider the tempo fluctuations that do appear throughout the whole Palmer's career really distracting and artistically questionable. I listened the other day to Heat of the Moment after decades and could not believe how awkward it sounded, as if no producer was in the room to tell the guys the take was not OK (I really dislike Howe's tentative solo in the track too). But opinions may vary, to each his own.

[Sputnik]

^Intentional or not, group decision or not, as a bass player myself I consider the tempo fluctuations that do appear throughout the whole Palmer's career really distracting and artistically questionable. I listened the other day to Heat of the Moment after decades and could not believe how awkward it sounded, as if no producer was in the room to tell the guys the take was not OK (I really dislike Howe's tentative solo in the track too). But opinions may vary, to each his own.

I think it's entirely valid to feel as you do. I sometimes feel that way as well, and at other times the decisions about fluctuating the tempo don't bother me. There's so much to dislike about "Heat of the Moment" that speeding up the chorus is the absolute least of my worries. Obviously, Mike Stone went with the band's decision to approach the song this way, and it certainly didn't hurt sales. Musician nerds may obsess over this, but tons of fans could care less, or actually unknowingly respond to the tempo fluctuations in a positive manner, which is exactly the point... to inject energy at certain moments.

It may well be that Palmer has advocated for this approach/technique across his career, but in the end, the other musicians have to go along with it. You know as well as I do that if someone in the band, especially the songwriter, says "this part is rushing" that the drummer, along with everyone else, makes adjustments. You simply cannot tell me that the band, or the producer, or whoever, were telling Palmer to "quit it," and he simply didn't... or couldn't. I don't believe it, especially when there are tons of pieces across Palmer's catalog where he doesn't rush tempos.

I think this is equally true when songs are played super-fast live. It's one thing if a song or part is rushed in a given performance. That does happen. But with ELP, it's pretty consistent which songs and parts they play faster across almost their entire career. It's a choice, and it's up to the listener whether that works for them or not. I just think laying it all at Palmer's feet is wrong. That's what I'm trying to get across.

Bill