Roger Waters 'new' version of Money - WFT?

[Garden Dreamer]

Includes the epic "F*** Off You Crazy Asshole".

And "Have an Exploding Trick Cigar"...

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Not a very good movie at all, IMO.

Ah, well; different strokes. Maybe seeing it at a drive-in when I was 11 or 12 had something to do with it

[Trane]

One thing is for sure: we all know Waters is right about his recent DSOTM claim about the concept of it.
Can't see Gilmour and Wright (let alone Mason) write lyrics of that value.
Gilmour's silence on this issue is quite revealing.

[LeFrog]

One thing is for sure: we all know Waters is right about his recent DSOTM claim about the concept of it.
Can't see Gilmour and Wright (let alone Mason) write lyrics of that value.
Gilmour's silence on this issue is quite revealing.

Fair enough. But when did the lyrics and concept ever take precedence over the music? Maybe in musicals but I'm not even sure.

[NogbadTheBad]

One thing is for sure: we all know Waters is right about his recent DSOTM claim about the concept of it.
Can't see Gilmour and Wright (let alone Mason) write lyrics of that value.
Gilmour's silence on this issue is quite revealing.

I certainly don't prioritize the lyrics over the music and having listened to Waters solo output I value Gilmour & Wright's contributions highly. It's hardly Waters plus 3 session guys. Gilmour's silence probably reveals he doesn't feel like talking about it. Waters seems to do more than enough talking in comparison.

[Interstellar]

Gilmour said in the past that Waters wrote all the lyrics and a fair amount of the music to DSOTM, and he thanked him for the lyrics when the post-Waters Floyd toured DSOTM in the 90s, so I'm not sure he has much more to say on the subject. The consensus is that all members contributed greatly to the success of DSOTM, which even Waters acknowledges to an extent, but in his mind 'writing' the album seems to be almost the same as creating the concept and writing the lyrics.

I happen to think that Wright's contribution to this album is one of the major keys to his artistic success. His tasteful keyboard sounds, the sense of melancholy that he brought with his voice and the chords he wrote, are really important. And he had a good inspiration for the cover artwork.

[3LockBox]

One thing is for sure: we all know Waters is right about his recent DSOTM claim about the concept of it.
Can't see Gilmour and Wright (let alone Mason) write lyrics of that value.
Gilmour's silence on this issue is quite revealing.

Revealing or just tired of the same broken record. Maybe Gilmour values his dignity more than Waters.

[aith01]

Gilmour's silence probably reveals he doesn't feel like talking about it.

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head.

[JJ88]

One thing is for sure: we all know Waters is right about his recent DSOTM claim about the concept of it.
Can't see Gilmour and Wright (let alone Mason) write lyrics of that value.
Gilmour's silence on this issue is quite revealing.

But this new 'Money' is what Waters comes up with when left to his own devices. Enough said.

The Final Cut is the only one with no writing credits to anyone else (by then there was hardly a 'Pink Floyd' left) and on that album, it shows. I still find that album better than Waters' 80s solo albums, but to me, it doesn't hang together as well as what had gone before it. Some striking, genuinely moving moments but it lacks something overall.

It's hardly Waters plus 3 session guys.

Indeed but that's what he and his biggest fanboys will have you believe. I don't. I think he's an enormous talent but he needed them as much as they needed him. They were a great team at their peak.

[aith01]

I think he's an enormous talent but he needed them as much as they needed him. They were a great team at their peak.

I agree.

[Piskie]

The great songwriter in Pink Floyd was Syd. As pointed out above after that they pulled together as a team and that produced their best work.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Syd was indeed a better songwriter than Roger; but I think that it could be fairly argued that Roger was the better lyricist in terms of producing something with actual intellectual and emotional content. I love Piper and the various singles and things surrounding it, but the lyrics, while often funny and/or charming, are not much better than, say, David Bowie's "The Laughing Gnome."

[Mr.Krautman]

Fair enough. But when did the lyrics and concept ever take precedence over the music? Maybe in musicals but I'm not even sure.

In a (good) song It's a combination of both , hard to dissociate or rank.

And in the case of DSOTM Roger Waters actually also wrote a big part of the music too.

[moecurlythanu]

The Final Cut is the only one with no writing credits to anyone else (by then there was hardly a 'Pink Floyd' left) and on that album, it shows. I still find that album better than Waters' 80s solo albums, but to me, it doesn't hang together as well as what had gone before it. Some striking, genuinely moving moments but it lacks something overall.

I like TFC, but to those that say it's sullen and morose...I get where they're coming from.

[Batchman]

I like TFC, but to those that say it's sullen and morose...I get where they're coming from.

TFC is definitely a concept album that should be listened to all the way through, but not every day. I would personally reserve it for a Memorial Day or Veteran's Day (US) holiday, like Britten's War Requiem or Vaughan Williams' Dona Nobis Pacem.

[Tangram]

Nobody ever said Waters didn't write the lyrics from DSOTM on. It says lyrics by Roger Water on all of those albums. But when I'm listening to music, music comes first. It can be the greatest story ever told, but if I don't like the singer (think VDGG, Dylan etc, YMMV) or the music is uninspiring, I'm not listening to it. Take Money for example. The interplay between Gilmour and Wright is amazing. When they change to 4-4 time and Gilmour's solo kicks in, that's what gets me listening. Good lyrics then push that song into the stratosphere. I've heard Waters' acoustic tape he brought to the band and he had the skeleton down. I don't know how credits are divvied out, but the other guys I would bet had a lot of input into the sound. Gilmour is on record saying he should have fought for more credit on The Wall. Another example is the intro to Sheep. I doubt Roger wrote that out for Wright. Wright did not get a credit. If you look at post Waters' PF and Gilmour's solo albums, you will see more credits. Jon Carin was surprised he got a co-credit for Learning to Fly for his sequencer pattern. Gilmour gave a credit to the guy who wrote the train jingle he used for Rattle That Lock. Methinks Gilmour is a little more generous in handing out credit.

I don't know how musicians hand out credits, but it seems to range from one guy doing everything (think ELO) to early Genesis where it said all songs done by all, even when they obviously weren't. Genesis changed that after PG left but starting with Duke they pretty much all had the same number of credits. By the last 3 studio albums with Collins, they were back all done by all.

Basically, Waters' is correct in saying he was the driving force. When he goes on pretty much says he could have got 3 other guys and got the same result, whether they got credit or not, he's deluding himself.

[Batchman]

Credits are often a sore point in groups. Take The Band, for example. It was Robbie Robertson's practice of taking all the songwriting credits that led to his split with the group and they'd never been the same since.

[starless and bible black]

This video clip from YouTuber "Become The Knight" really sums up my feelings about this new version of Pink Floyd's "Money". And keep in mind, Roger can also do remakes of Wish You Were Here, Animals & The Wall in this same dreary style.

[Trane]

Sorry if I may break down wide open doors below, but...

Fair enough. But when did the lyrics and concept ever take precedence over the music? Maybe in musicals but I'm not even sure.

DSOTM is a concept album, therefore lyrics are not exactly Let's Get It Up or Ram It Down , Boys Loses Girl drivel.
In the case of concept (therefore a story to be told), if it isn't there beforehand, then the music that will be developped over it will probably not exist in the form that we know.
In most case, the music is born before the lyrics - often added on as an afterthought.
The pre-existing concept storyboard will dictate often the music.

It's hardly Waters plus 3 session guys.

Roger certainly implied nothing of the sort. BTW, Rog the Rogue also wrote an important part of the music, as well.
But I'd say that because of the DSOTM lyrics, Waters hogs 60 to 65 % of the credits (I didn't check this), and therefore due to author's rights (where 50% of the royalties goes to the lyric writers), Roger also (involuntarily?) hogged most of those revenues. If that is so (65/35), then it leaves little to Wright and Gilmour (let alone Maqson)
This 50/50 royalty breakdown between author & composer was also a major fallout between Fripp & Sinfield inside Crimson, Fripp being clearly annoyed Sinfield getting as much royalties he was getting on Lizard & Islands. Before Lizard, Fripp wasn't the main composer of the band's material.

Gilmour said in the past that Waters wrote all the lyrics and a fair amount of the music to DSOTM, and he thanked him for the lyrics when the post-Waters Floyd toured DSOTM in the 90s, so I'm not sure he has much more to say on the subject. The consensus is that all members contributed greatly to the success of DSOTM, which even Waters acknowledges to an extent, but in his mind 'writing' the album seems to be almost the same as creating the concept and writing the lyrics.

I happen to think that Wright's contribution to this album is one of the major keys to his artistic success. His tasteful keyboard sounds, the sense of melancholy that he brought with his voice and the chords he wrote, are really important. And he had a good inspiration for the cover artwork.

Yesss to all of this.
It was a fantastic team work on an original Waters idea.
I just hope Rog will do justice to the rest of the album (from the opening trailer - we heard a few notes of Breathe, but it sounded like it was getting the same new Money treatment, which is not encouraging.

Indeed but that's what he and his biggest fanboys will have you believe. I don't. I think he's an enormous talent but he needed them as much as they needed him. They were a great team at their peak.

Nothing of the sort. TBH, given his rants and droollings, I don't think Rog has got fanboys anymore.
Not even I, if that's what you're implying.

Syd was indeed a better songwriter than Roger; but I think that it could be fairly argued that Roger was the better lyricist in terms of producing something with actual intellectual and emotional content. I love Piper and the various singles and things surrounding it, but the lyrics, while often funny and/or charming, are not much better than, say, David Bowie's "The Laughing Gnome."

I was never really convinced by Syd's so-called genius. As for Roger's lyrics in those halcyon days, it wasn't obvious at all that he would become the lyric genius of DSOTM and WYWH.

In the Piper days, it's difficult to believe (from my PoV, therefore IMHO) that the guy writing odd ditties like Emily, Layne (and others) also had a major share of the writing of Overdrive, Power Toc H and all of that "space rock" stuff direction - which was the rest of the band grooving together (IMHO, again).
Clearly the main meeting point was Astronomy Domine (oddly enough solely credited to Syd), but that took on immediately another dimension when he was not around. It was the only "Syd track" they kept around the set list (needs verifying, though) after he was gone.

In a (good) song It's a combination of both , hard to dissociate or rank.

And in the case of DSOTM Roger Waters actually also wrote a big part of the music too.

Yes, after all, prog is generally where the more meaningful rock lyrics are, from Thick as A Brick to DSOTM.
Then of course you got Jon' mumbo-jumbo to lessen my case.

Someone earlier in this thread likened Maca to Syd and Lennon to Roger, and clearly Lennon's lyrics were more serious (as in profound/political) that Paul's after the break-up.
I can't see Maca writing Working Class Hero's lyrics, but I could see Roger coming up with them.
Just like I could see Roger coming up with the acrimonious How Do You Sleep, but David being totally incapable of coming up with a text that near that good.

===========

Coming from a French background, even in La Chanson Française, intelligent thought-provoking lyrics often overtook the actual music, beit Brel, Lavilliers, Brassens, Ferré, Nougaro, Renaud and plenty of others.
But difficult to dissociate the lyrics from the final music, because producers/orchestrators/arrangers come in enhance the background (music).

[Rarebird]

Credits are often a sore point in groups. Take The Band, for example. It was Robbie Robertson's practice of taking all the songwriting credits that led to his split with the group and they'd never been the same since.

Yeah, you are right on that one, I think. I have one The Band album that was made after The Last Waltz, but it doesn't hold a candle to the 5 piece Band with Robbie Robertson. This week I saw a documentary on them. Levon Helm was angry at Robbie Robertson, because he didn't get enough credits for his arranging work.

That's the problem with groups when egos take over. Groups are often more than the sum of their parts. Even if one, or 2 write the music on their own, there still may be some magic involved, that makes it all come together. Look for instance at Supertramp. Rick Davis and Roger Hodgson wrote songs apart from eachother and still what any of them did after Rodger Hodgson left, was not as good as Supertramp with Rick Davis and Roger Hodgson together.

[JJ88]

Credits are often a sore point in groups. Take The Band, for example. It was Robbie Robertson's practice of taking all the songwriting credits that led to his split with the group and they'd never been the same since.

DSOTM is fairly evenly balanced in that department. It and WYWH do sound like band records to me (though in light of the above quote, not a 'The Band' record!) and the credits reflect that. Animals also has Wright all over it, even if the credits don't reflect that.

I would concede that The Wall has a different feel, although I love it.

[ronmac]

Ah, well; different strokes. Maybe seeing it at a drive-in when I was 11 or 12 had something to do with it

I felt the same way when I was a kid. I watched it several months ago and couldn't get through it. It's very stylish, but pretty terrible.

Fair enough. But when did the lyrics and concept ever take precedence over the music? Maybe in musicals but I'm not even sure.

IMO, lyrics are every bit as important as the music. In some cases, more important. Words typically come first with the music typically written to help communicate them. When the words come later, it usually shows because the music forces them into a corner, so to speak.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Yes, after all, prog is generally where the more meaningful rock lyrics are, from Thick as A Brick to DSOTM.

Can't agree witih you at all. Sure, there are some great lyricists in prog.

Outside prog, you have (off the top of my head) Pete Townshend, Jello Biafra, Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Robert Hunter, Ray Davies, Joe Strummer, Alice Cooper (at his best), John Perry Barlow, Springsteen, Patti Smith, Leonard Cohen (though his range tended to be limited), Paul Simon, Bowie, Sly Stone, Warren Zevon, Randy Newman, Elvis Costello, ... Need I go on?

There are also some pretty damn dud lyricists in prog. Greg Lake and Peter Sinfield, separately and together, come to mind, as do both Andersons (though at his peak Ian wrote some great ones, he also has written some serious crap).

[rapidfirerob]

A constipation product ad played before Money. It’s a gas indeed. Hard to say which is more annoying. I believe Roger wins.


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[Batchman]

This video clip from YouTuber "Become The Knight" really sums up my feelings about this new version of Pink Floyd's "Money". And keep in mind, Roger can also do remakes of Wish You Were Here, Animals & The Wall in this same dreary style.

And he didn't even address the video content. What's up with the dog closeups? Well, that doesn't matter if you only choose to buy the album, which it seems few people will be inspired to do based on this initial sample.