Question? Who were the beginners of Prog?

[Iluvatar]

Hello, a newbie here. I have been warned by several good folks about posting here. Please don't crush me on this...

You guys are apparently total estorica. But I wanted to get your expert opinions on this central question. Who did the break-through work in Prog Rock?

I thought I would venture out my humble opinion on this difficult subject. I am considering those bands that shaped the music going forward. They may be either considered as points of nexus or points of boundary, but whatever, so here goes:

1) Procol Harum: I am listening to "In Held Twas In I" right now (150th time). Very interesting band, Trower was not the only hero here. The guy who wrote the words was a true hero (hold on, reading the liner notes: Keith Reid). And I have yet to hear the vocals of Gary Brooker - ever!

2) Van Der Graf Generator: hard to listen to - takes at least 3-6 times before you can digest. But way before their time. They were on the outer boundary for sure.

3) Gentle Giant: those 3,4,5 brothers sure brought the English/Celtic "river song" into the Prog Rock hemisphere - Jethro Tull followed. Especially "Songs From The Wood" (but Tull's "Benefit" should be mentioned, to wit: "Teacher").

4) Focus: this power trio were WAY BEFORE their time. Thijs & Jan created the greatest gift in "Eruption" off of 'Moving Waves'. Steve Howe actually copied Focus in his guitar licks. Keith Emerson copied the synth movements as well. It takes no expert to realize this...

5) Hawkwind (???): "Hall Of the Mountain Grill" - space rock idiots, but this one is early and worthwhile.... I thought it was defining...

6) Pink Floyd: "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" - their early stuff (up to "Meddle") was ground-breaking. Liked the middle stuff too (Dark Side, Wish You Were Here).

7) Kraftwerk: 2 Germans who have been involved in electronics for too dang long - album is: "Ralf und Florian". I guess they started their own genre: Electronica??, Techno-Rock?? Dunno. Their influence on electronics can't be ignored.

8) Atomic Rooster: I find myself asking when will Vincent stop playing? Palmer was superb - then went to ELP. Smart dude.

9) King Crimson: "Court of..." Fripp went nuts, probably the 2nd original generation of "RIO" (Procol was 1st). Very original.

10) Last, but not least: Renaissance - but wait a sec? Apparently that is the featured album! Never heard of it. Oh well. These guys brought classical music into Prog. Awesome! "Ashes Are Burning" & "Novella" are superb contributions to Prog Rock. I feel so bad for Annie Haslam. It never occurred to me that singing was such a stress on the vocal cords. Crap! Now I am not so hard on Jon Anderson when he couldn't make the gigs after 2004. She had to be the BEST 5-octave singer in the 20th century - NO DOUBT! Take good care Annie (I would marry you in a heart beat!)

Now this interesting. My favorite 3 bands aren't even on the list: YES, Emerson, Lake & Palmer, or UK

Alan White's effort on Topographical Oceans "The Revealing Science of God", as well as "The Gates of Delirium" was stunning. But- he was just standing on the shoulders of giants (Gentle ones - pun intended). Rick kicked some major butt on the former, Patrick did the same on the latter - dear lord! There is a long story involved with me getting UK's 1st album, I better save it for later.

When you have the time, can you well established gentlemen put your 2 cents in? I would be very interested in all the stuff I have missed. Thank-you.

Plse don't kill the messenger...

Iluv

[Dave (in MA)]

When you have the time, can you well established gentlemen put your 2 cents in?

Well, that rules me out.

[Gruno]

I'm out.

[Teddy Vengeance]

Stand back folks. I'll handle this one.

In the Court of the Crimson King is widely considered to be the first fully-fledged 'Prog' album.

However, this didn't occur in a vacuum. Several foundations were already in place:

Piper at the Gates of Dawn brought in the psychedelic element.

The lush, orchestral symph sound was already a part of the Moody Blues repertoire from Day of Future Passed.

Zappa was already doing... Zappa.

Any number of modern composers were working with ambient, minimalist, electronic soundscapes and the like.

And, last but not least, Miles Davis was pulling jazz in a new direction.


Gradually all of these merged into what most now refer to as 'Prog".

[progmatist]

In the Court of the Crimson King is widely considered to be the first fully-fledged 'Prog' album.

And one can't mention that album without also mentioning Greg Lake, who soon after would team up with Emerson and Palmer.

[Iluvatar]

@Teddy:
Well it looks like sub-boxes don't work here, darn it!
I was reticent at mentioning the Moody Blues. Heck! I just listened to "Every Good Boy..." & "Seventh Sojourn" last week. It had been WAY too long since I had listened to them. Quite enjoyable. I love these guys!

Now the issue with Zappa (dang! I hate genre discussions - a topic upon which I am utterly clueless). But here goes. By coincidence, I recently bought up a block of Zappa at the insistence of a good friend. Totally loved it! He and the Mothers were very, very hot. But after to listening to 6 CDs of his, I came away with a non-English word for the Mothers: "integrationist". Holy cow! Frank was a master integrator - I would say the BEST EVER. He blended jazz, rock, and blues pretty much seamlessly. But? At the end of the day? I would not have classified his music as "prog rock" (whatever the heck that NOW means or MEANT). He threaded 3 different forms of music in an ingenious manner. Is Zappa's music considered to "prog rock" on this web site? If so, well then, I think he should go on the list! Go figure. Looks like I got a lot to learn.

Now wait a sec. I may be misunderstanding what you are saying here. Is Miles Davis classified as "prog rock" now as well? Holy cow! I consider him to be jazz (post BeBop era). However, "Bitches Brew" was a seminal effort in that it created the bridge between the Jazz genre of the `60's and Jazz Fusion of the `70's. That is just my imho. What a stellar piece of work! And? Guess who is playing on it? Chic Corea and Lenny White. Looks to me like Return to Forever had a gosh-durned head start in the Jazz Fusion regime. BUT! If you are gonna mention Miles, then why not John Coltrane and Thelonius Monk as well. Those hep-cats were generating some serious bodacious music as well, "prog" or "jazz".

I will be honest with you. When I try to understand genres by visiting the Prog Archives site, my eyes cross or I get dizzy at the 4:17 mark. On that site, it seems like everything is "prog". And the sub-genres? Holy cow - I venture not into that territory anymore - too confusing. Wanna here an anecdote? I asked a guy how to tell the difference between Rap and Hip-Hop. Answer? An amorphous collection of gobbly-gook. To this day, I can not tell the difference between Rap and Hip-Hop. I also don't care - I don't care for the music. But you see the dilemma with genres that I have. I ONLY get classic rock, grunge (`90's), jazz fusion, and "prog". I just don't get anything else. Let's just chalk this puppy up as a lost cause...

[Monet]

Hansson & Karlsson "Tax Free" 1967







The Moody Blues "Nights in White Satin" 1967






The Nice "Rondo" 1968

[Iluvatar]

Hansson & Karlsson "Tax Free" 1967







The Moody Blues "Nights in White Satin" 1967






The Nice "Rondo" 1968

I never heard this before! It is fantastic! I have logged into my research list. Thank-you!
I had only one album from Bo, here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/28428707978...SABEgK4BPD_BwE

But that was b/c I loved The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (ahem…)

And yes, the Moody Blues and The Nice did some real spade work. I have to re-listen to my collection of The Nice – I was very disappointed the last time I listened to them 25 yrs ago. But my recent adventure re-listening to Soft Machine has taught me a lesson. Don’t do that! Re-listen to your stuff after you have dusted it off! Doh!

(Hey! Did you see that???? No classical music!! Hah!)

[Monet]

Sort of in the early Uriah Heep/Deep Purple vein

This


The Gods "Looking Glass" 1968





The Gods "I Never Knew" 1968

[Monet]

Certainly an outstanding "fully-fledged prog".


Caravan "Where but for Caravan Would I?" 1968

[Iluvatar]

@Teddy & @Dana5140

"And, last but not least, Miles Davis was pulling jazz in a new direction."

"Break through is different from progenitor. "

Thanks for that. I masticated over those 2 statements for about 48HRS. (No, there were no injuries)

I wanted to circle back on my comment about bricks and mortar. But first I want to comment on Teddy's comment - I thought long and hard about this (which is about 10 HRS).

If? (big if!) If we were to consider Miles Davis to be prog, then (as an extrapolation of that logic) I would suggest that Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and (my fav) Ravel (his Bolero was used in ELP, remember - Abaddon's Bolero?) also be considered to be prog artists. Latter dude was late to the show. (I heard somewhere that there were riots in the streets or the bar when Bolero released)

Early Prog was heavily influenced by classical music. Current prog is so diluted that it doesn't make sense to me anymore. Wait a sec, checking on something: yup! There it is: the Strawbs. They are in the PA list! I talked to David (Cousins) back in 2006 at a small venue in Annapolis, MD. He said that his band trajectory was going from folk to electronic folk. Prog? No! We're not prog; we're electronic folk! Guy almost hit me! Holy cow! Here is the band creator saying that the Strawbs are NOT prog@! Holy cow! What does that say???

Now I want to circle back on the bricks and mortar comment. People mix mortar, people build bricks, other people build brick and mortar buildings. Miles Davis (and John Coltrane and Thelonius Monk) assembled some bodacious brick & mortar buildings as Jazz greats. No doubt. But? Guess what happened? There were a lot of bricks leftover.

And those leftover bricks found themselves in other brick & mortar buildings built by bands in both Prog and Jazz Fusion (RTF is obv, yes? oh mon dieu). I would suggest that there are a lot of leftover bricks from BBM&R that find themselves in several Prog bands as well.

OK. But that does that imply (i.e., the implication does not hold) that the originators of those dang bricks obeyed the genre classification of those future brick & mortar buildings (bands). I.e, they were not Prog - they were classical musicians or jazz musicians.

A quiet moment on the definition of progenitor: there are several. The one I like best is "ancestor". From which further things come. Works for me.

With that logical calculus in place, the statement that: "Break through is different from progenitor. " makes sense. A prog rock band can be both a progenitor and a break-through (though, that would be rare, any band draws from past experiences). But, Miles as well as BBM&R were progenitors of Prog. Were they Prog? Not imho.

Is this making sense?

(crap! Am I now down to 3 stupid questions left? Darn it!)

[thedunno]

I think Frank Zappa with Lumpy Gravy is the first.

[flowerking]

A lot of the key groups have already been stated. I would certainly have on the list Zappa, Moody Blues, Procol Harum and King Crimson. To a lesser extent there would be Pink Floyd but also the Beatles (like Floyd, a lot of studio experimentation) and Deep Purple (classical overtones and even playing with an orchestra) and I suppose the Nice although I don't know much about their music. Two complete wild cards to throw in are the Grateful Dead (not prog but check out St Stephen > The Eleven, it has plenty of prog elements) and the Beach Boys (Pet Sounds).

[Piskie]

A Very Cellular Song by the Incredible String Band deserves an honourable mention, but to my mind the doors were bust opened on Sgt Pepper.

[Munster]

My thinking is that what we NOW see as “progressive” music developed incrementally, and it is only in retrospect that we can see which albums NOW conform with what we NOW define (loosely) as progressive music. Take the Harvest label, which was launched by EMI in July 1969 as a subsidiary label to address demand for the new style of “progressive” rock music. The first band on the Harvest label was Deep Purple, and they were accompanied by the Edgar Broughton Band and Chris Spedding (for example), which would not NOW be described as progressive bands. But, back then, the definition of progressive music was obviously different from what it is today. So what we NOW hear and define as progressive music can perhaps (as Teddy Vengeance says) be first heard on “In The Court of the Crimson King”. But the dawn of progressive music was not on October 10, 1969 (the release date of “In the Court of the Crimson King”). Perhaps, as thedunno says, “Lumpy Gravy” was the first prog album. But the dawn of progressive music was not on August 7, 1967 (the initial release date of “Lumpy Gravy”). Prog music’s growth was an incremental process, only gaining shape when viewed from today’s vantage point. Hope that makes sense.

[Vic2012]

Prog music’s growth was an incremental process, only gaining shape when viewed from today’s vantage point. Hope that makes sense.

The whole post was excellent, and yes it makes sense. The same could be said about hard rock and heavy metal.

[Zeuhlmate]

1966 Beatles - Revolver ?

[happytheman]

1966 Beatles - Revolver ?

TNK's for sure..

[Halmyre]

Another reckoned as an early influence - The Graham Bond Organisation. Classical riffs on a Hammond, one of the first to use a Mellotron.

[moecurlythanu]

Manikin were definitely beginners.

[NogbadTheBad]

9) King Crimson: "Court of..." Fripp went nuts, probably the 2nd original generation of "RIO" (Procol was 1st). Very original.

Nice post, others have covered most of the bases needed, not jumping down your throat just a point of clarification.

Procol & Crimson were never "RIO", the Rock In Opposition movement was formed in '78 by Henry Cow when they invited 4 European band to join them in opposition to a music industry that didn't appreciate or support them. The original RIO bands are Henry Cow, Univers Zero, Samla Mammas Manna, Etron Fou Leloublan, & Stormy Six.

[Iluvatar]

@NogbadTheBad:
You caught me. Excellent catch. This will be the 7th time I have been caught abusing the term RIO (which is why I put it in quotes). The previous 6 times my colleagues lambasted me on abusing the term. Upon explanation to me, it was clear I had no idea what I was talking about.

When I said "RIO", what I really was talking about was a technique used by both Procol and King Crimson when they would construct a sequence of tones/notes, that, when put together in a sequence was totally atonal. At it worked - fabulously! I think Todd Rundgren also did it off his double album "Todd" (this dude also doubled as a master recording engineer; guy was a genius as a recording engineer).

So what term do we use for the atonal sequences (we're not talking time signatures here - just a blast of music that doesn't make sense) that these guys used? Whatever term is adopted I'll go with. I don't want to get spanked on misusing an accepted term anymore.

Wow! This is interesting. After all the warnings about posting on this site? I haven't been killed yet! Gotta say, I approached this site with a whole lot of trepidation (aka I was sweating bullets). It is too bad that I won't be needing to clip my nails for another month...

[Steve F.]

small note to OP:

The break through work with prog, at least as I think most of us define breath through, ≠ the beginnings of prog.

[Dana5140]

Break through is different from progenitor. For early music that led to prog, I consider Touch a classic.



After that, Yes and King Crimson, with ITCOTCK the breakthrough.

[Iluvatar]

Wow! That is some pretty good stuff. I got an inkling of the Beatles @ the 18:00 minute mark. But? At the end of the day? I just can't see how listening to "Sgt Pepper's" influenced them to produce this - that's amazing. That is one heck of a crossover! Btw, never heard of these guys before. Did some research. Found `em here:

https://www.amazon.com/Touch/dp/B006...%2C261&sr=1-14

This is an icredible Progressive Rock album that was released before this was an everyday term
Reviewed in the United States on August 18, 2019
Verified Purchase
Ever wonder what happened to the '60s band, "Don & the Goodtimes"? Don Gallucci and his band were direct competition to the Kingsmen, Paul Revere & The Raiders and other Pacific NW bands that toured up and down the West Coast. But as Don said in an interview, "we heard "Sgt Pepper" and realized that we had to change to be relevant." This is the result. I originally bought this LP when it came out in 1969 because I liked anything unusual and finding an album that opened from the front and had an orange obi-like paper band around it fit the ticket. The music inside though blew me away, because I had never heard or knew what "progressive rock" was until I put the needle on. Each song on this LP is different - from hard rock, to night club crooning, to music that Zappa could put his name on to just plain rock'n rool. All were expertly crafted and recorded and of course supervised by Mr. Gallucci who later went on to make his name as a producer. I now have a rather beat-up copy of the LP, and now the extended CD which is sonically perfect. Try this. Just remember that this was very ahead-of-it's-time when released in 1969.

Hey! It's only $90 used. Man, that's stiff - better check my music budget out (crap...).

2 questions? Usage of terms: break through and progenitor. How do you view the differences between the two. I kinda think a successful break through becomes a (future) progenitor. I view YES as a progenitor - after all consider these 2 bands: Iluvatar and Marillion.

Other question: I don't do social media stuff, how in the world did you get that YouTube video to post up with a picture link? I was thinking of posting a YouTube of Focus since no one seemed to consider them "break through" (although the progenitor aspect shows up in YES (Steve Howe) and ELP (Emerson)).

Thanks for posting this. I really like what these guys are doing! Big change from the Kingsmen, don't you think?