Prince was a pretty talented guy, and like many artists, a lot of his best songs IMO were the deeper album tracks that didn't get played on the radio.
Kate Bush is fantastic, and I have put in a request to the mods for her submission in this thread to be stricken from the record, and for the offending parties to have Nelson from the Simpsons point and laugh at them all day long for the next month.
Interviewer of reprobate ne'er-do-well musicians of the long-haired rock n' roll persuasion at: www.velvetthunder.co.uk and former scribe at Classic Rock Society. Only vaguely aware of anything other than music.
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Hmm... I've never heard about Prince "treating" his audiences to excessive wait times, but in terms of being worth it or not -- for me it all depends on who the performers are, and the reason for the delay.Originally Posted by markwoll
This was pretty much my experience. Same for Genesis, David Bowie, Todd Rundgren, and many other favorites of mine.
Pioneer? I guess, in some ways. To me, she seemed exactly "of her time," when I first started hearing her stuff in the early 80s. And there were plenty of idiosyncratic female artists in the mid/late 70s. I'm not saying Kate Bush wasn't influential, but I wouldn't lay Bjork and Tori Amos strictly at Kate Bush's feet. FWIW, I'm not a super fan of either of them either, though at least in Bjork and Tori Amos' cases I like some of their songs. Not a super fan, though. There's really nothing by Kate Bush that I've enjoyed musically.Heresy.
But seriously... Kate's a legend, and rightly so. She was a pioneer of her time -- c'mon guys, she was one of the earliest people to utilize the Fairlight CMI, which she used on her albums starting in 1980!She also paved the way for other idiosyncratic female artists like Bjork and Tori Amos (who the record label wanted to be another Kate Bush, but that didn't happen).
(Cue the Bjork and Tori Amos haters now...)
OK, he's all over the map. So what? If I don't like any of the music I've heard by him, he could cover every genre imaginable but if I don't like how he works in those styles, what difference does it make?. Mind you, I'm not disputing he's a talented musician (though I think people over-rate his guitar playing which I'd say is good, but not great), or that he wrote compositions that appeal to a lot of people. I'm just saying none of it appeals to me. I also have nothing against him personally. Yeah, for a while he came across as a bit "arrogant," but what's new? He did seem like a pretty good guy deep down, and I was sorry when he died. I just don't see what's so super exciting about his music. People were freaking out over 1999, I still can't believe it. I guess for dance music, it's OK, but to me those were dull, repetitive songs with piss-poor production. I sampled a lot of varied stuff by him after he died and people were extolling his virtues. None of it did anything for me.Prince's music, dull? He was so all over the map during his lifespan, and that's not an exaggeration. His music may be many things, but "dull" is not a word I'd ever use to describe it (except maybe for the song "Purple Rain").
Bill, I respect your opinion on a lot of things, but this one really caught me by surprise.
What would a prog forum be without disagreement, right?
I think what you want me to say is that while I don't "like" the music these artists made, that I "respect" them for what they accomplished. There are artists like that for me, Zappa and Magma come to mind. I'm sure there are some in the pop world... U2 perhaps. Probably some others. I just got nothing with Price and Kate Bush. I think their popularity is a product of elements beyond their music, performance aspects, their "personas," their looks, and possibly lyrics (I confess I've never listened too deeply to either artist's lyrics). But at a pure musical level, I just don't just don't connect Kate Bush or Prince in any way. It's my loss, don't worry about it!
I think we've found the true "or else" artist! My work here is done.
Bill
Well, I've never heard anyone else who sounds like Kate Bush during the late 70s and throughout the 80s, except for maybe Peter Gabriel. Certainly no one who was as popular as she was. So in my view, yeah I think she was a pioneer -- in more ways than one, considering her early adoption of the Fairlight CMI in what was essentially pop music. And she was a self-taught pianist/keyboardist, so her approach to writing was affected by that. It's not because of her idiosyncrasies that I call her a pioneer, those are just the icing on the cake. If you disagree, that's fine. C'est la vie. Believe me, I'm used to it in my circles.
The point I was trying to make is he's not an artist you can pigeonhole, and that I have a feeling there are Prince songs you would actually dig (if you didn't know they were by Prince).
Actually I don't want that, my objective really was just to provide some counter-argument so that this thread doesn't become an echo chamber -- the aforementioned "safe space".
On this I disagree. I'm living proof that their music connects with people -- even skeptics -- without all the other stuff outside of their music. I wasn't old enough during either artist's heyday, so I never got to witness their personas, concerts, music videos, etc. In fact, Prince's persona actually put me off listening to him initially until I learned that wasn't who he really was. Their music is what hooked me. I know I'm not the only one.
It's my loss, don't worry about it!
Edit: I forgot to mention a friend of mine, who's quite a few years younger than I am. His favorite artist is Bjork, but about 10 years ago he discovered Kate Bush -- now he loves her music too. His favorite album of hers is The Hounds of Love. It does happen.
Last edited by aith01; 08-03-2020 at 05:53 PM.
Well, it wouldn't have killed you to buy the tickets and take her to the concert. I did that for the Lady Gaga concert in Chicago, but then she fell and broke her hip and couldn't perform for some time after that.
Lay some samples on me, I'll try again.The point I was trying to make is he's not an artist you can pigeonhole, and that I have a feeling there are Prince songs you would actually dig (if you didn't know they were by Prince).
I probably should have said "mass" popularity. Just about every artist that releases something connects with somebody. I just think the mass appeal of these artists was influenced by other factors. But that's true of lots of other artists as well.
Bill
Don't even start with that. I have seen some very nice shows with my wife. Barry Manilow ( twice ), for one. And I bought the tickets.Well, it wouldn't have killed you to buy the tickets and take her to the concert. I did that for the Lady Gaga concert in Chicago, but then she fell and broke her hip and couldn't perform for some time after that.
I just won't show up and wait forever for a show. The stories about Prince were fairly early in his career ( 80's and early 90's )
Been there, done that for stuff that was not 'all that' ( I'm looking at You, UK nearfest 2012 ).
Technical difficulties, like seeing U2 outdoors a few hours after a unexpected thunderstorm came through.
They tried to fix up their 'magic stage show' ( for Pop ) but gave up after an hour of delay ( with apologies ) and made the best of it. Good show too.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-- Aristotle
Nostalgia, you know, ain't what it used to be. Furthermore, they tells me, it never was.
“A Man Who Does Not Read Has No Appreciable Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read” - Mark Twain
I have some sacred cows I don't like but everyone does. Actually I think PE is kinda terrible about this. Reading prog fans' thoughts on basic three chord rock or R&B is kinda like listening to nuns talk about sex.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart
The problem is you'll already know they're Prince songs. I've been down this road before with trying to get my brother to come around to Cardiacs.
I think that's a bit unfair though. If you're saying that Prince or Kate Bush wouldn't have risen so high in popularity without things like public persona, image, performance etc. -- yeah, you're probably right. But I think Prince's music itself especially connected with more people than you give him credit for (I could name several in my immediate circle, some of whom are just average folks, and some of whom are professional musicians). It's easy to write off someone we don't like as just being popular because of superficial reasons -- I've done that plenty myself over the years, and had to eat my words when I realized how talented Justin Timberlake actually is.Went out and bought his 20/20 Experience album too, on the day of release.
If we take Bowie as an example: Very popular for a long while, had a kind of strange or eccentric public image (well, more than one actually) that got him a lot of attention, and overall was a bit larger-than-life and/or controversial for reasons outside of his music. He had highs and lows in his career, but when he dropped off the face of the earth for 10 years (on the health-related hiatus), his music remained in the public consciousness. People were still listening to it, and a new generation was discovering it. We're not talking about someone like Britney Spears, or N'Sync, whose popularity based on their musical abilities (playing and writing) is a lot less credible (IMO).
Bowie made music that connected with a lot of people on its own merits. Prince is no different in that regard, IMO (and Kate too, although I think her audience was ultimately a fair bit smaller). I suppose time will tell whether I'm wrong or right on that one.
I promise to be as open minded as possible. I largely hate Bruce Springsteen, but there are several of his songs that I like a lot, and I like much of the Nebraska album. I don't dismiss music I like because it's from an artist I don't generally like. In the case of Prince, I've just literally never heard a song of his I enjoy - even ones he wrote for other artists.
Another band I dislike. I'm guess I'm just the slayer of PE sacred cows!I've been down this road before with trying to get my brother to come around to Cardiacs.
Well, who said life was fair?I think that's a bit unfair though. If you're saying that Prince or Kate Bush wouldn't have risen so high in popularity without things like public persona, image, performance etc. -- yeah, you're probably right. But I think Prince's music itself especially connected with more people than you give him credit for (I could name several in my immediate circle, some of whom are just average folks, and some of whom are professional musicians). It's easy to write off someone we don't like as just being popular because of superficial reasons -- I've done that plenty myself over the years, and had to eat my words when I realized how talented Justin Timberlake actually is.
Talent, to me, has nothing to do with it. I can hear the talent in tons of artists from pop tarts to Neo-Prog dudes. The issue to me is does their music resonate with me? I don't want or need to hear a great singer sing a shitty song (meaning a song that I think is shitty). Likewise, there are lots of artists who are less technically talented whose music resonates with me. Neil Young has been mentioned as one people don't like. I can understand that, but for me a good bit (not all) of his stuff works. I'm not like an uber fan, but there's something visceral about him and his music that I can connect with, even recognizing his musical limitations.
Neil's music almost has to cut through, because there's little else there to market (save his "rebellious" personality, which I think is part of the appeal with him). I'm not saying music isn't a part of it with Prince and Kate Bush, but in their case, I think music is mixed with many other elements that made these two into mass popular stars. Are they Britney or the Back Street Boys that are almost pure image? No. But I think absent those good looks and performance aspects, I doubt either would be as popular as they are. That's all I'm saying.
Bill
Or maybe prog fans talking about sex.
Lou
Looking forward to my day in court.
Dolly Parton. My God, just look at those Dolly Woods.
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!
Elvis, Schönberg, Stockhausen, Monk, Sinatra.
Last edited by Rarebird; 08-04-2020 at 09:19 AM.
I'm with you, surprised the thread is still open, I'll hold my thoughts on this one other than to say around Boston it seems to be The Dropkick Murphy's, who are a fun band.
Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/
Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
I blame Wynton, what was the question?
There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.
Regarding Prince. I do not own any of his albums, nor did I ever see him live. I did not care for most of the music he did, but there is no doubt the guy was an incredible musician. In my opinion he was also an innovator. Here is a pretty good little compilation of some of his guitar solos.
The thing about Prince was, he managed to single handedly dream up now just the songs but the arrangements on all those early records of his, when he was playing all the instruments. I suppose that's not that unique, I guess it happens a lot in pop and R&B music, but that he could walk into a studio with a song in his head, and then walk out 8 or 9 hours later with a completed track, with himself playing all the instruments, seems a bit astounding, to me.
As far as "what instruments couldn't he play", that's a funny thing. You often times here people quote him as supposedly playing 20 instruments, based on the instrument list that came with his first album> Well, a lot of those instruments were different makes and models of synths, as well as different guitars (e.g. acoustic guitar, electric guitar, "Spanish" guitar, etc). Sorry, but "Minimoog" "Oberheim Four Voice" and "Prophet-5" are not three different instruments. The guy was a drummer/percussionist, bassist, keyboardist, guitarist, and vocalist. But that by itself is pretty impressive, that you could play all those instruments well enough that he could play everyone of them on the finished track.
And yes, he was an awesome guitarist. I've never comprehended anyone who says "I didn't know he could play like that". I'm like, "Where the frell were you for 1984-1985?!". You couldn't listen to Let's Go Crazy or When Doves Cry or Purple Rain and tell that he was a bad ass guitarist?! OK, When Doves Cry, he does have Wendy Melvoin miming the solo in the video, so maybe I could see in that instance someone saying "Well, that's Wendy playing that bitchin' solo". But on the record it's Prince playing everything on that track.
Not everything he did was brilliant, even on the records I think are great, there's usually one or two filler songs, and like every other male R&B singer, apparently, he had to have those stupid spoken word bits in the "slow jams". But you can't knock the guy for what he accomplished.
As far as him being arrogant, well, he did pull that stunt on the Jimmy Fallon show, where he tossed Captain Kirk Douglas' guitar in the air and let it hit the ground (snapping the headstock), so I think that kinda speaks for itself.
Last edited by GuitarGeek; 08-04-2020 at 12:51 PM.
Just another shredder, then??
(not impressed, BTW)
How many of these instrumental breaks were present during one of his concert??
I mean , how long did the guys in the audience have to wait (and suffer this crappy 80's funk - an redundancy) to get one of them solo?
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
There is worse stuff than Prince, how many Pop Stars made an Album of instrumental Jazz/Fusion?
I can't stand Ephemeral Sun. Not sure why but for some reason they take this very personally and have let me know in no uncertain terms just how unacceptable my opinion is.
If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
https://battema.bandcamp.com/
Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com
You're one of those artists who hate everything they've done the minute it hits the shelves, right?
Grendel!
Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/
Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
I blame Wynton, what was the question?
There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.
That explains the breakup.
If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
https://battema.bandcamp.com/
Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com
Ditto to the ditto
If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
https://battema.bandcamp.com/
Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com
Cross posting to lowlights thread....
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Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit
Why the hate for the "like it or else" thread? If you read the various posts, there are members who are explaining why they don't care for the various artists output and conversely there are those who are staunchly defending the artists as being the real deal (Prince, for instance). I don't see a lot of cheap shots being taken and many are just offering their view of why they don't care for artists who get a lot of worship from the public. When artists put themselves in the public eye, they are going to get positive and sometimes negative feedback. It comes with the territory. And, as far as Prog Ears members commenting on straight ahead rock or R & B artists, that isn't anything new in the Off Topic forum.
When it comes to Prince, I liked some of his songs and I thought he was an exciting live performer (including his Superbowl half time show). However, I don't see him meriting the legendary status that has been given him by the media or the fan base.
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