What The Frak Is With Two Drummers?

[TheLoony]

I get the Dead's approach to it, two drummers playing different lines even if I don't get the Dead.

I'm watching Joe Bonamassa Live from the Royal Albert Hall. Why do this? What the hell am I missing here? Why have two drummers do the same damned thing?

I've seen .38 Special and while they were a damned good rock act the two drummer thing seemed stupid. Same with Joe Walsh, who I've seen a video from a few, yet recent, years ago, do the same.

Seriously, what am I missing here? With the amplification and mixing done, why would anyone need a second drummer?

I need some help on this one. I'm not getting it. It's not necessary in this day and age with all the tech that creates the sounds we hear.

I didn't get it back then, although, as I said, I get the Dead's approach to it but who needs more than one drummer if they are doing the same thing?

I kinda think I need some help in other parts of my life but I'll be damned, I cannot figure this out.

[Chain]

Two Drummers??? Pfffft

Three Drummers is the way to go.

Check out latest KC Video clips


Why have 2 guitar players?

Why not have two bass players?

[TheLoony]

Yeah, I don't get KC also. While I have listened to a bit of their music it just doesn't reach out to me so I'm not really into what they have done and experienced like you have.

.38 Special doesn't really fall into the category of KC, am I right? Not to be a dick, but we are talking vastly different styles of music.

[GuitarGeek]

Why two drummers? Because it looks cool onstage. That's the reason 99% of the bands who have two drummers do it. Most of the time they're playing the same thing, or very nearly the same thing, but with sort of a flam thing happening, because there's no such thing as two drummers hitting a giving drum at exactly the same time.

And actually, that includes The Grateful Dead. Most of the time, Kreutzman and Hart are playing pretty much the same thing. There are occasions when they were playing different things that I think a single drummer couldn't accomplish, like on some of the live versions of Terrapin Station, but most of the time, it ain't nothing special.

To this day, I say Mickey was wasted in the Dead. Here's a guy who's studied all these different kinds of ethnic musics, he had this huge collection of different kinds of percussion instruments, talking drums, tars, balofons, the Beam, The Beast, etc and about the only time you ever really heard it in the Dead's music was during the Rhythm Devil's segment of the live shows. I always thought a lot of the improv sections of some of the songs could have been benefited from him stepping away from the trap drums and playing more of the other instruments he had at his disposal.

Mind you, we're talking about a band that, half the time, seemed content to be the world's most successful bar band, and I don't imagine there's much room in songs like El Paso, The Race Is On and Louie Louie, for Indian or African derived polyrhythms. The Dead are one of my favorite bands, but geez, did they ever spend a lot of time futzing around onstage (and I'm not just talking about the extended "tuning" excursions, either).

Same thing with the Allman Brothers Band, most of the time, the double drums was superfluous. The only thing I can really think of where it really made any sense was the middle section of True Gravity, where it sounds like one of them is playing in half time, while the other is playing in double time (I'm talking about the section during Warren Haynes' slide guitar solo, in case you care to actually listen for it).

The legendary story about the Allmans was that Duane was supposed to put together a power trio, as per Hendrix, Cream, etc, which was going to be him, Berry Oakley, and I believe Jaimoe was going to be teh drummer. But he started having these jam sessions with his friends, and one day, the three of them, plus Butch Trucks and Dickey Betts. I think I read one time originally Reese Winans was the organist on this jam session, but I can't remember at the moment. Anyway, I think it was Butch who said that they started playing this shuffle that lasted about 2 hours, and after it finally ended, Duane said "Any y'all who don't want to be in my band are gonna have to fight their way out of this room". So that's apparently where there were two drummers in the Allmans.

In the case of .38 Special, the story I read once was that both of the original drummers were friends of the other guys in the group, and they didn't want to pick one over the other, so they went with both of them. I believe I read that in the studio, usually, only one of them would play on a given song, they only used both simultaneously onstage. But that ended sometime back in the 90's, I think one of them quit, and they just didn't bother replacing him (and I think eventually the other one quit too, I think I read Don Barnes is the only original member left in the band).

I'd have to spend more time with Zappa's Roxy & Elsewhere, but I think that might be the one record where the double drums are actually doing something regularly that might be unplayable by one drummer (hell, half the time he'd have one drummer playing theoretically unplayable stuff). For what it's worth, that record was the reason Phil Collins offered the onstage ancillary drummer role in Genesis to CHester Thompson, after hearing that fill that he and Ralph Humphries does on More Trouble Every Day (and which Phil and Chester then added to the Afterglow arrangement).

Speaking of Phil, there's at least a few songs where he double tracked his drums in the studio, giving him that flam effect on every beat that I mentioned earlier. Listen to the beginning of Behind The Lines or Duke's Travels, for instance.

Oh, and the other really great double drums record, and probably the best, simply because of who is on it: Meditations, by John Coltrane. So that makes two records where the double drums actually were doing something that required two drummers, enough so that McCoy Tyner quit because he couldn't hear his piano over the hell that Elvin Jones and Rashied Ali were raising.

[GuitarGeek]

Why have 2 guitar players?

Well, the most obvious reason is to have one guy playing "rhythm" while the other plays "lead". As Lemmy once put it, usually when you have one guitarist in a band and he starts playing a solo, "The ass drops out of the song". I actually like the sound of no rhythm guitar behind a solo in certain instances, liek when you listen to some of the live stuff by The Who, or Hendrix, or Cream, it creates a lot of space which can theoretically work if the drummer and the bass player know what they're doing.

The other reason is so you can have things like harmony guitars, or having the two guitarists doing different chord inversions (something that happens in bands like Kiss and Thin Lizzy, for instance). On some of the Genesis stuff where you had two 12 string guitars going, like on Cinema Show or Entangled, each guitarist woudl be playing different parts, typically really basic simple stuff, but when you put the two guitar parts together, you got more complex harmony. A simple example might be one guitarist playing an E major arpeggio, while the other is playing a G#minor arpeggio, and when you put them together, you got an E major 7th chord.

Why not have two bass players?

John Coltrane did that occasionally, notably on his album Ascension. I believe some of the Village Vanguard recordings from November 1961 have both Reggie Workman and Jimmy Garrison playing. And there's an alternate version of the song Nature Boy (which I first heard on the classic quartet studio sessions box, but I think it's also on the John Coltrane Quartet Plays... reissue) where's got both Garrison and Art Davis playing.

In rock music, there's things like One Of These Days, which in it's studio form had David Gilmour and Roger Waters both playing bass on the first section. I believe I've read there's also two bass parts on Shine On You Crazy Diamond Part VI, one playing the sort of heartbeat rhythm, while the other is playing the sixteenth notes, as the piece rises up out of the wind effects.

In the 90's, there was Ned's Atomic Dustbin, and I'm sure I've heard of other bands with two bassists, too.

[Rarebird]

To give the music more power?
Look at an orchestra. The first violins all play the same part, but you can't say, why not just use one violin instead.

[Halmyre]

In the 90's, there was Ned's Atomic Dustbin, and I'm sure I've heard of other bands with two bassists, too.

Off the top of my head, The Cure's single 'Primary' has two basses and no guitars.

[arabicadabra]

One word answer:

Thrak

[Steve F.]

I'd have to spend more time with Zappa's Roxy & Elsewhere, but I think that might be the one record where the double drums are actually doing something regularly that might be unplayable by one drummer

Upsilon Acrux, Magic Band and Famous Actors From Out Of Town are three examples of dual drummers where one drummer would not suffice for the demands of the music.

[Chain]

Yeah, I don't get KC also. While I have listened to a bit of their music it just doesn't reach out to me so I'm not really into what they have done and experienced like you have.

.38 Special doesn't really fall into the category of KC, am I right? Not to be a dick, but we are talking vastly different styles of music.

Not to be a Dick but this was the Question of the thread title. "What The Frak Is With Two Drummers?"

[BravadoNJ]

There can only be one.... Drummer. the other is just for show.

[Mister Triscuits]

Not to be a Dick but this was the Question of the thread title. "What The Frak Is With Two Drummers?"

And shouldn't it have been "What the Thrak"?

[jake]

John Coltrane did that occasionally, notably on his album Ascension. I believe some of the Village Vanguard recordings from November 1961 have both Reggie Workman and Jimmy Garrison playing. And there's an alternate version of the song Nature Boy (which I first heard on the classic quartet studio sessions box, but I think it's also on the John Coltrane Quartet Plays... reissue) where's got both Garrison and Art Davis playing.

In rock music, there's things like One Of These Days, which in it's studio form had David Gilmour and Roger Waters both playing bass on the first section. I believe I've read there's also two bass parts on Shine On You Crazy Diamond Part VI, one playing the sort of heartbeat rhythm, while the other is playing the sixteenth notes, as the piece rises up out of the wind effects.

In the 90's, there was Ned's Atomic Dustbin, and I'm sure I've heard of other bands with two bassists, too.

Off the top of my head, The Cure's single 'Primary' has two basses and no guitars.

There was a thread devoted to this very subject a while back

http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...o-bass-players

[Grimjack]

Andrew Hill’s ‘Smokestack’ (Blue Note, 1963) is a piano, dual bassist, drum session that’s pretty awesome. Hill tends towards melodies that can be a bit abstract and combined with a rhythmic center that’s a bit of a moving target, this combo explores some neat spaces. Not the masterpiece that his legendary ‘Point of Departure’ album is, but very much worth hearing.

[DocProgger]

This is obvious I would think, but Genesis needed two drummers out of necessity live when Phil became lead singer. And the dual drumming on the instrumental parts was not only pretty cool, but gave the music even more power. And they didn't always play the same thing. Watch Bruford on the Trick tour film and listen esp during Cinema Show where he is playing different percussion to what Phil is playing.

Same thing with Bruford and Muir in KC.

[Zappathustra]

Ole Coltrane is 2 bass if I recall correctly, the one with a bow.

[GuitarGeek]

This is obvious I would think, but Genesis needed two drummers out of necessity live when Phil became lead singer.

Actually, they only "needed" two drummers because Phil "needed" something to do during the instrumental bits. Kinda like why Gabriel started playing flute.

Same thing with Bruford and Muir in KC.

Muir was more of a general purpose percussionist, though, playing just about anything except trap drums much of the time.

[Don Arnold]

Izz employs two drummers, one electric and one acoustic, and to my ears this works very effectively.

[aith01]

And shouldn't it have been "What the Thrak"?

Ah man... That's what I was coming into this thread to say.

Nice one, btw.

[TheLoony]

Izz employs two drummers, one electric and one acoustic, and to my ears this works very effectively.

Ok, that sounds like a real use of two drummers. I'll have to check them out.

That leaves me with the rest of the thread to respond to. Right, then.

Grateful Dead. I don't really know much about their studio output which after a while was basically nonexistent cause they just did shows and only did that one last album with Touch of Grey on it. I did get to see them live, Jerry's last show in Vegas before he died on my b-day a few months later. Was totally bored as it takes them a hour or so to get to the point but I always thought they did slightly different takes on the music. Too bad I was so far away I couldn't see what the heck was going on. The drum solo section with Dave Matthews drummer joining in was awesome though.

King Crimson. Yeah, I should have used the word Thrak in the title. Bad job by me. That's actually my fave KC album, maybe because it was my first? Who knows but I'll have to go back and listen to it to see what the two drummers are doing, exactly. See if there's a video out there from that time, that would help. I do totally get that KC are awesome musicians but damn they are even too weird for my ears and the same goes for Zappa. Love his attitude and approach to music but I just don't get it so it's mostly uncharted lands I've never explored.

My comment about the Dead and .38 Special was meant to be that the Dead almost require two drummers, live, while .38 doesn't. It's overkill IMO. I get it, they were friends, not unlike Collective Soul who went with three guitarists even though they didn't need that many but they were friends so they stuck with it.

I don't know, to me it looks stupid. It doesn't seem to enhance the sound that much and visually when I see two drummers I wince. Damn, man, I have no training on drums, just what I learned from videos and instructional tapes, but I can do better than a lot of drummers can, even two of them. I'm also very weird, so that helps that I can pull on a variety of different sources and rip them off the best I can. Been doing that in all the bands I played in and I do think I came up with some interesting lines at times.

I just don't see the need unless you are going to do something different with the two drum parts.

[Steve F.]

I just don't see the need unless you are going to do something different with the two drum parts.

Play the 1st track here:

https://archive.org/details/FA3574-6744

[GuitarGeek]

Grateful Dead. I don't really know much about their studio output which after a while was basically nonexistent cause they just did shows and only did that one last album with Touch of Grey on it.

That's In The Dark you're thinking of, and there was another after it, called Built To Last. And in fact, by the time Jerry passed, they had enough new songs for yet another. The reason the Dead didn't produce any studio records between `980 and 1987 was because they had worked out a deal with Clive Davis, whereby the band would be allowed to make a record the way they wanted to (versus Clive assigning some goofball like Gary Lyons or Keith Olsen to produce them). The band probably could have been more productive, if Jerry and Brent had had the...uh, "problems" they had.

the Dead almost require two drummers,

Bullshit. The Dead most definitely didn't require two drummers, and I maintain that the best music they played was when Bill Kreutzman was the only drummer. But that might have been as much a function of the other musicians having a better sense of dynamics and a willingness to, say not play for a bit, during the improvisational sections of the shows.

After about 1976, that went away, and you had a situation where you'd have all six musicians going full steam, at the same time, and things often times sounded very cluttered, like six people talking at the same time, instead of taking turns. None of the Dark Stars they did after Mickey came back were as good as what they did circa 1968-1974.

As for .38 Special, like I said, that was down to the other musicians not wanting to tell one guy he didn't get the gig over the other, so they hired both of them.

[Buddhabreath]

Genesis used two drummers to great effect back in the day and really rocked the house - you would have got it if you were there. I was frankly skeptical about 3 drummers going into the KC concert last year, but again they used them to great effect and on no account were they doing the same thing or nearly the same thing. Quite the opposite: it was carefully arranged and added great texture, dimension and power to the proceedings. I got it and got it damn well.

[Mister Triscuits]

I liked HoBoLeMa: they needed Pat Mastelotto there because Terry Bozzio didn't have enough drums.

[DocProgger]

Actually, they only "needed" two drummers because Phil "needed" something to do during the instrumental bits. Kinda like why Gabriel started playing flute.

e.

Completely disagree per what I wrote in my earlier post. Also Bruford and Chester were not just aping Phil when they were dual drumming. Their drum kits were set up differently, they frequently played different fills etc.

In the 10 concerts I saw Genesis play live, never once did I come away thinking, "man that dual drum setup was a complete waste". Nor did I ever hear any fellow fan say something like that. On the contrary, it added a powerful auditory and visual benefit to the live experience--ie it kicked ass.