Rumors of the vinyl revival's imminent demise were exaggerated

[JKL2000]

So the next big viral thing is MJ Thriller and Fleetwood Mac? Naahh... The sales statistics so far rather support the Chestnut hypothesis.

As far as I've seen (over here), most of the vinyl revival is fuelled by 40-somethingers that remembers the feel of the format.

Yeah, I'd guess vinyl sales (!) have plateaued or are close to doing so. Not that I expect them to drop, until we drop. I'm glad if businesses like Melotronen, Laser's Edge, etc. have gotten a shot in the arm from vinyl, even if I think the revival of vinyl is a bit silly.

I'm going to go back to watching TV on something like this because it seems more authentic.:

[DocProgger]

I'm going to go back to watching TV on something like this because it seems more authentic.:

Beyonce looks stunning on those old tube TVs.

[ronmac]

At least boomers buy physical product.

That's why the list holds so many chestnuts -- kids today don't buy.

Go to your local retailer on record day and see how many patrons buying vinyl are half your age. You might be surprised.

[Rune Blackwings]

or is it just that albums that once upon a time sold for less than 20$ are now priced at 25$ or more?

Plus, you have record store day hyping reissues and rare material

[3LockBox]

I've paroused a few rekkid stores with my college-aged daughter of late. Its mostly 20-somethings and I'm usually the only guy in there over 35yrs old that isn't the manager.

I do think that I at least squelched her curiosity of cassettes, having recently procured an old truck with a cassette deck and demonstrating that an MP3 player through a cassette adapter sounds better than a used tape.

But hey, at least they're buying physical product and eschewing P2P downloading to get their musical kicks, even if a lot of it is used. It could mean a resurgence of interest in the album as an artistic statement... I hope. But they are at least expecting to pay money for it.

[Jerjo]

The Rolling Stones Studio Albums 1971-2016 Vinyl Box is sold out on Amazon US already. That's semi-amazing considering it dropped only a month ago.

[JKL2000]

I've paroused a few rekkid stores with my college-aged daughter of late. Its mostly 20-somethings and I'm usually the only guy in there over 35yrs old that isn't the manager.

I do think that I at least squelched her curiosity of cassettes, having recently procured an old truck with a cassette deck and demonstrating that an MP3 player through a cassette adapter sounds better than a used tape.

But hey, at least they're buying physical product and eschewing P2P downloading to get their musical kicks, even if a lot of it is used. It could mean a resurgence of interest in the album as an artistic statement... I hope. But they are at least expecting to pay money for it.

Here's a question though: is more vinyl sold online or in stores? If it's online, are the buyers mostly under 35? I'm guessing it's online, only because I only have one record store anywhere near me, and I think it's all used records. Even if it's not, it's tiny. But I have no idea if people the same age are also buying vinyl online.

[Birdy]

Here's a question though: is more vinyl sold online or in stores? If it's online, are the buyers mostly under 35? I'm guessing it's online, only because I only have one record store anywhere near me, and I think it's all used records. Even if it's not, it's tiny. But I have no idea if people the same age are also buying vinyl online.

Here are a few facts from my perspective(35 years as a record store owner):

We are getting buyers for vinyl aged 12-75. The young kids are getting into it because of the magic of the technology, the cool packaging, the fact that they have something to own and cherish and also because of the music. They are buying a lot of used records as they don't have a lot of income(most) because the prices have gone up unfortunately. Young buyers in the 20-30 age roughly are buying both used and new. Older buyers also are buying used and new and while some are certainly on a nostalgia kick, many are also into new artists(at least here where I try to bring great new artists/releases to the attention of our customers). Last year was our BEST year in sales since our beginning in 1979, even beating the glory years 1988-91 when we still sold 3 formats. Eight years ago I had about 5-600 albums in stock, it's now up to over 8,000 used and new and thriving.

Some other facts: no idea about the ratio of on-line to brick and mortar stores but Toronto now has over 40 record/music stores and in the U.K. there are apparently now more stores than there have EVER been in the history of the music industry.

Final fact: rcarlberg will NEVER admit that vinyl is a viable format as he shits on every thread that even mentions the word "vinyl" with his stupid comments, so give up trying to argue with him. Almost 5 years ago I started a thread for vinyl and gave up because of his asinine posts on the subject. 5 years ago he ridiculed the return of vinyl as a "hipster" fad but the guy just will never admit when he's wrong.

Cheers.

[Facelift]

Here's a question though: is more vinyl sold online or in stores? If it's online, are the buyers mostly under 35? I'm guessing it's online, only because I only have one record store anywhere near me, and I think it's all used records. Even if it's not, it's tiny. But I have no idea if people the same age are also buying vinyl online.

Record stores keep closing in NYC, so based on that plus the fact that vinyl sales are rising, I would suspect that a good number are being bought online. Either that or Barnes & Noble and Urban Outfitters are selling a lot of new vinyl. The margins on new vinyl are very low so it's probably not possible for dedicated record stores to exist in Manhattan - despite the surge of interest in the format - if new vinyl was their primary product.

Buying online is great until you have to return stuff, which is inevitable with new vinyl unless you aren't buying the records to actually play.

[Jerjo]

Record stores keep closing in NYC, so based on that plus the fact that vinyl sales are rising, I would suspect that a good number are being bought online. Either that or Barnes & Noble and Urban Outfitters are selling a lot of new vinyl. The margins on new vinyl are very low so it's probably not possible for dedicated record stores to exist in Manhattan - despite the surge of interest in the format - if new vinyl was their primary product.

Buying online is great until you have to return stuff, which is inevitable with new vinyl unless you aren't buying the records to actually play.

Is it possible that one of the reasons those stores are closing is the NYC real estate market? I can't imagine a record store having enough income to survive in Manhattan.

[Facelift]

Is it possible that one of the reasons those stores are closing is the NYC real estate market? I can't imagine a record store having enough income to survive in Manhattan.

Well, yes.

Implicit in "the margins on new vinyl are very low so it's probably not possible for dedicate record stores to exist in Manhattan" is that operating costs are higher in Manhattan such that mostly selling new vinyl records is not profitable enough of a venture to start that kind of a business there.

But plenty of other businesses *are* viable despite the real estate prices so... just saying.

[JKL2000]

The margins on new vinyl are very low...

How do you know this? I don't doubt it, I'm just wondering about your source for this. I'm surprised, only because I sort of assumed the online vinyl dealers were making a pretty decent profit on the albums. I figured there has to be a hefty markup happening somewhere because the things seem so expensive, but maybe they're just that expensive to manufacture.

[Facelift]

How do you know this? I don't doubt it, I'm just wondering about your source for this. I'm surprised, only because I sort of assumed the online vinyl dealers were making a pretty decent profit on the albums. I figured there has to be a hefty markup happening somewhere because the things seem so expensive, but maybe they're just that expensive to manufacture.

I'm sure Birdy or any of the other retailers who participate on this board will corroborate that the margins on new vinyl are low.

This is not exactly secret knowledge.

The big profit margins are on 2nd-hand vinyl. The problem is that you need to source stuff that people want to buy, and from what I hear, good stock is getting harder and harder to find.

[Birdy]

I'm sure Birdy or any of the other retailers who participate on this board will corroborate that the margins on new vinyl are low.

This is not exactly secret knowledge.

The big profit margins are on 2nd-hand vinyl. The problem is that you need to source stuff that people want to buy, and from what I hear, good stock is getting harder and harder to find.

It depends on how you run your business I guess. If you want to survive ANYWHERE(although obviously it's harder the higher the rent is etc) then you HAVE to have a regular margin on ANY product you sell or you will either struggle or perish. I firmly believe that a large part of the reason why all the chains are gone is because they tried to low-ball everything which doesn't give you enough income to invest in more and interesting product. While I do have sales when I can and when sales are offered to me from distributors, I maintain the same margin generally which I've always had, whether it's on CD's, DVD's, T-Shirts, accessories and yes...even on new vinyl. I have a HUGE inventory and variety of product and the ONLY way I can offer that to my customers is by making money and reinvesting it back into this product. It's the only way to keep people coming.

And yes, used vinyl in good to great condition is becoming harder and harder to find because so many people are back into it. Most of my "great" vinyl stock(used) now comes sadly enough, from estate sales.

[Birdy]

It's true. It's lasted too long to be "a fad" so there MUST be something else to it. To "have something to own and cherish" can't be it, because CDs are physical too. "The cool packaging" is there in CDs too, just smaller. So is the music.

Maybe it is "the magic of the technology."

Too bad I don't believe in magic....

You can't(in my opinion) cherish a CD. You can cherish the MUSIC on a CD, but let's face it, CD packaging on a whole is just plain boring, too small and not very unique. Try hanging up a great cover like Talk Talk's "Colour Of Spring" or Tull's "Stand Up" on your wall as a CD booklet. Laughable. Not to mention trying to read liner notes etc. A lot of the younger people also like the variety of coloured vinyl.

[JKL2000]

I wonder if some people prefer the sound of vinyl because it's (possibly) somewhat inferior to the sound of a CD? I like listening to old-time radio shows, and some of them have pretty rough sound (some sound pretty good, too). I can tell you, though, if someone somehow offered me any old radio show I wanted with pristine sound, I'd take the original recording, because while it would objectively sound worse, to me it would sound better than the pristine recording.

I'm not saying vinyl doesn't "sound good," just that maybe in some way the sound isn't AS good, but can still be interpreted as better.

BTW, as far as the limitations of standard CD packaging, I won't argue, but I will say this is why I like some of the limited editions that have been done, with larger size digibooks, etc. But overall, I agree vinyl will win out in that department.

[Birdy]

Birdy, I feel obligated to correct one misstatement you make here, and that is that I disrespect vinyl.

I have stated many times -- every time it comes up in fact -- that I collected vinyl for 20-25 years and fully understand the thrill of finally finding an album you've been looking for forever, and the electric charge you get when breaking the seal for the first time on a brand new disc. I also stated, over and over and over again, that those who WANT to collect vinyl have every right to do so and I'll never make fun of them. To each his own, if that's what you want to do, then happy trails.

What I object to / take offense to / feel personally obligated to correct in print, is when some "tech-know-nothing" claims that vinyl has superior stats -- frequency range, dynamic range, signal-to-noise, noise floor, wow-and-flutter, speed accuracy, imaging, depth, accuracy or anything else of this sort. This is not in question, the science is in, there is no contest: CDs won that derby hands down!

I admit I get on my high horse especially about LPs, because I considered myself something of an LP collector back when I had a collection. I feel like I know that world. So whenever anybody appoints himself as the spokesman for all vinyl collectors, I like to take some wind out of his sails.

"Viable format"? Sure, for its time.

Superior format? Not in a million years.


There you have it. In your opinion. I happen to cherish all my CDs, each and every miserable little one of them.

I'm not going down your rabbit hole again . Here's what you said a year ago:

"But I don't miss surface noise, ticks and pops, record wear, constant cleaning, I don't miss the limited dynamic range or the restricted frequency response. I can accept that you prefer analog with all of its warts, hear no benefit to digital's total lack of noise and distortion and wear and superior dynamic and frequency range. I accept it but don't understand it."

The truth is that you DON'T accept it.
You also stated this:

"Yes, clinical is a good word for it. Compared to the warmth of LPs -- and the rituals of playing LPs -- the CD is nowhere near as comforting."

So why not just let it go as you realize there IS something people love about LP's. In 2014 you wrote:

"The two most popular formats may turn out to be crappy MP3s and even crappier LPs."

which doesn't exactly show your "like" for the format.

And this:

"I'm not against vinyl at all.

What I object to is when somebody says vinyl sounds better than CDs."

Why can't you let people have THEIR opinion?

There's always hope that you'll stop shitting on every thread about vinyl but it's unlikely to happen.

[Facelift]

I wonder if some people prefer the sound of vinyl because it's (possibly) somewhat inferior to the sound of a CD? I like listening to old-time radio shows, and some of them have pretty rough sound (some sound pretty good, too). I can tell you, though, if someone somehow offered me any old radio show I wanted with pristine sound, I'd take the original recording, because while it would objectively sound worse, to me it would sound better than the pristine recording.

I'm not saying vinyl doesn't "sound good," just that maybe in some way the sound isn't AS good, but can still be interpreted as better.

It's such a complex issue. Yeah, I agree that statement. I think for some people, some of the limitations of vinyl are part of the listening experience for them and they don't like not hearing them.

In other cases, CD reissuing of 1960s and 1970s albums originally pressed to vinyl don't sound as good to me. Those albums, in their original incarnation, are being heard they way that they were mastered for, on vinyl. Many titles never had a CD reissue that measured up, and they never will, since the original analog tapes are now either lost or unusable.

Most contemporary recordings that I've heard on vinyl do not sound substantially different to me from their CD counterparts, but I think you can really hear a difference - very often for the better - with the older stuff.

[Birdy]

I wonder if some people prefer the sound of vinyl because it's (possibly) somewhat inferior to the sound of a CD? I like listening to old-time radio shows, and some of them have pretty rough sound (some sound pretty good, too). I can tell you, though, if someone somehow offered me any old radio show I wanted with pristine sound, I'd take the original recording, because while it would objectively sound worse, to me it would sound better than the pristine recording.

I'm not saying vinyl doesn't "sound good," just that maybe in some way the sound isn't AS good, but can still be interpreted as better.

BTW, as far as the limitations of standard CD packaging, I won't argue, but I will say this is why I like some of the limited editions that have been done, with larger size digibooks, etc. But overall, I agree vinyl will win out in that department.

I don't buy that LP's sound inferior, it completely depends on which version of what etc etc, but there are a huge amount of titles on CD that either weren't done from the right tapes or were not done right or have had the hell compressed out of them to the point where the LP wins. Some titles, like Dire Straits, Bruce Cockburn, ECM and others I have found to sound unbelievably good on both formats but for sure, when the volume is cranked up, the CD sounds harsher and the vinyl warmer, smoother, nicer, whatever you want to call it. I have never hear a Rush album on CD that I think sounds as good as an original pressing or a recent reissue because they all sound harsh, tinny etc. So it totally depends.....

[Steve F.]

How is stating facts "shitting on every thread"? I stand by everything of mine you quoted. In fact, I'd challenge you to find ANY scientific proof that contradicts what I have written.

Personal opinions don't count, BTW.

They aren’t facts, Robert.

You DO, indeed, shit in every vinyl thread. You don’t respect people who don’t agree with you. Some people like vinyl better. The end. I don’t and you don’t, but I don’t care about how people enjoy music, as long as they are enjoying music. For some reason it bothers you.

They don’t have to defend it and an adult would allow these folks with a different feeling about vinyl to talk and to enjoy themselves.

It’s tiresome. Give it a rest. Please.

[nosebone]

They aren’t facts, Robert.

You DO, indeed, shit in every vinyl thread. You don’t respect people who don’t agree with you. Some people like vinyl better. The end. I don’t and you don’t, but I don’t care about how people enjoy music, as long as they are enjoying music. For some reason it bothers you.

They don’t have to defend it and an adult would allow these folks with a different feeling about vinyl to talk and to enjoy themselves.

It’s tiresome. Give it a rest. Please.

bravo!

What I don't understand is why Robert even bothers opening a VINYL thread if he is not a fan?!

[chalkpie]

What I don't understand is why Robert even bothers opening a VINYL thread if he is not a fan?!

So he can flex his digital front-end muscles with his lips puffed out.

[moecurlythanu]

And yes, used vinyl in good to great condition is becoming harder and harder to find because so many people are back into it.

Fucking fadish trendoid hipsters.

[JKL2000]

He's got a forcefield and a flexible plan
He's got a date with fate in a black Sedan
He plays fast-forward for as long as he can
But he won't need a bed
He's a digital man

[ronmac]

bravo!

What I don't understand is why Robert even bothers opening a VINYL thread if he is not a fan?!

He eats a lot of fiber.