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Thread: The Difference Between "The Analog Sound" and "The Digital Sound"

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    The Difference Between "The Analog Sound" and "The Digital Sound"

    In recent threads we've been dancing around the elephant in the room, which is that DDD productions sound different (usually...) than AAA ones.

    Tim47 says that he hopes his thread doesn't turn into an anti-Wilson thread, tommy_n_chucky says that Steven Wilson is a genius whether you like his music or not. Recent threads on whether LPs are mastered from digital files, or whether digital lathes are used in LP production, pre-suppose some inherent differences in sound between the two technologies.

    But the difference hasn't really been spelled out. I've listened to a few Steven Wilson remasters. They DO sound different.

    I thought perhaps it might be fun to discuss how people define or hear those differences???

    For me, his remasters sound "more analog." Wikipedia has this to say of another remastering engineer's technique:
    [Steven] Hoffman's method of transferring tapes is minimalist. The adjustments he makes depend on the quality of the tape source and the equalization choices of the mixing engineer. While he avoids compression, limiting, and noise reduction, he does add "colorations" through subtractive equalization and up to five layers of vacuum tube distortion.
    What is the effect of five passes through a vacuum tube process? It smooths out the waveforms. It makes the output sound "more analog."

    If you've ever sat in front of a saxophonist, or an oboist, or a bagpiper, you know the sound of their instrument is harsh, raspy, biting. On a digital editor the waveforms look very spiky, with lots of sharp edges. Just like they sound.

    OTOH looking at the waveforms of analog recordings from 1950s-1970s the waves tend to be much smoother, more rounded, more symmetrical. On speakers the sound is less grating, less edgy. With most speaker systems this is an improvement, because the hardest thing for speakers to reproduce is spiky waveforms. The moving mass of the speaker cone (or tweeter dome) just doesn't want to move in spiky directions. The result of putting a spiky waveform into them, unfortunately, is often DISTORTION, or movement that wasn't in the original music signal. Distortion, in other words, that is inherently non-musical. So adding "musical distortion" by smoothing out the waveforms is preferable.

    High-compliance tweeters -- like ribbon tweeters and electrostatic tweeters and the like -- are better at reproducing non-linear waveforms. But at the expense of lower sound pressure levels, due to the difficulty of moving the membrane in non-linear patterns.

    I suspect that most people who prefer "the analog sound" do so because a) they don't get out to live music much, b) their stereos don't reproduce difficult waveforms well, and c) they've never heard a "live sound" reproduced correctly in their living rooms before. All they've heard is the unmusical distorted attempt from non-compliant speakers.

    Yes, there's another whole issue of brick-walled compression on many CDs (because CDs will hold 0dB content without distortion, unlike LPs). But this issue is really completely separate from the accuracy of the original recording. Giving up on CDs because some of them are mastered by cloth-eared nincompoops is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

    Another whole issue is the philosophy of mastering. Some mastering techniques -- like adding five layers of "tube sound" -- are a matter of personal taste and compromise and playing to the lowest common denominator. Wilson's remasters of Tull, for instance, remove all of the "bite" from the acoustic guitar and the rasp from Ian's flute. Some people, a lot of people, prefer this smoother sound. But I don't. On a good stereo "listener fatigue" isn't what you get from playing live-sounding recordings. Quite the opposite -- I find music played through a thick carpet is dull and lifeless.

    But that's just me. Would love to hear other opinions.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 05-28-2018 at 01:51 PM.

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    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I've listened to a few Steven Wilson remasters. They DO sound different.
    Robert

    Steven Wilson doesn't do remasters. He does remixes, going back to the original multi-tracks and making new decisions about mix, placement, eq, etc that is meant to provide an upgrade while respecting the original.

    YMMV about whether you like them or not (I generally find them 'interesting and fun'), but:

    Completely, completely different thing from 'remaster' as it is generally used.
    Steve F.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    He goes back to the original tapes and changes the overall sound of the mixes. Call it what you will.

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    I've heard Wilson's Close To The Edge remix a few times and it's the same there. Way too scrubbed clean for my personal taste, no grit left. I hear something like his mix of 'And You And I' and there are a few moments in that where I think, that's flat out wrong. The only thing he's done where I could easily imagine a true improvement with is his remix of Chicago II, which was not well mixed in the first place.

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    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    As far as the argument that CDs have greater dynamic range than analog: apart from a Shostakovich symphony, how much music really takes full advantage of the CDs available dynamic range? The vast majority of music is compressed, if for no other reason, to even out the volume.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

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    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    He goes back to the original tapes and changes the overall sound of the mixes. Call it what you will.
    I'm calling it what it is.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

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    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  7. #7
    ^ (original post) This could be a matter of making assumptions about the sound that don't necessarily exist (though they might - I'm not saying they don't).

    Steve Wilson is, first and foremost, a twiddler. He hasn't met a recording he doesn't think he can "improve" in some way. The CD is the ultimate blank canvas - a recording engineer can make it sound like whatever he wants. All of Steve Wilson's recordings sound heavily treated to me; that is, they contain all sorts of sound signatures and don't sound accurate in any way. I therefore don't think that the use of analog equipment at various stages in the process is necessarily what makes his recordings sound as they do, but the tons of manipulation that he adds to the process. IMO, Steve Wilson can suck the life out of the most vibrant sound recording, but maybe others hear something else. In any event, nothing is presented as it actually sounded in the recording studio, but as Wilson specifically wants it to. Should this really be so heavily attributed to being by-products of using analog equipment? I'm not so sure.

  8. #8
    I don't have much to add as I'm not an audiophile, but find audiophiles debating the nuances interesting.

    Neil Kernon is an studio engineer with an impressive resume, someone who has to listen to music for a living and produce the best sound...anyways over the years there have been debates on audio quality on this site: https://pmx2.krose.org/forum?action=...sage_id=351995 (almost 10 yr old thread)

    And I thought CDs were a dying model, but not according to this article:

    CDs, vinyl are outselling digital downloads for the first time since 2011
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...me-since-2011/

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    As far as the argument that CDs have greater dynamic range than analog: apart from a Shostakovich symphony, how much music really takes full advantage of the CDs available dynamic range? The vast majority of music is compressed, if for no other reason, to even out the volume.
    True. Classical music, some electronic music, a few jazz recordings specifically engineered for high DR (Flim & The BBs, Lincoln Mayorga/Thelma Houston, Jacques Loussier, Louis Bellson's Drum Session, the Buddy Rich tributes, etc.) Only the productions that make a POINT of utilizing the full capability of the Compact Disc really display the vast difference in formats. Most productions, as you say, either don't push the limits or intentionally compress the dynamic range to sound louder on the radio.

    BTW it's not an "argument." It's a scientific fact.

    I was more pointing to the greater CLARITY of high frequencies in digital productions.

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    Member R_burke's Avatar
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    So much of this debate depends upon the DAC being used to process the data and the system being played on, at least when listening is involved. Bottom line music is an analog medium IMO.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_burke View Post
    music is an analog medium.
    Unless sheet music is involved.

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    I do all my listening using one of those radio transmitters plugged into the tuner, and it's tuned in to one of those 1970's Radio Shack stuffed dogs with an AM radio in it. I'm wondering if that affects the experience. I do use the hi-def downloads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I do all my listening using one of those radio transmitters plugged into the tuner, and it's tuned in to one of those 1970's Radio Shack stuffed dogs with an AM radio in it. I'm wondering if that affects the experience. I do use the hi-def downloads.
    It depends on how "friendly" you get with the plushy.

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    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    He goes back to the original tapes and changes the overall sound of the mixes. Call it what you will.
    It's isn't an accurate comparison twixt a remaster and a remix. Twiddly or not, a remix is before the fact and a remaster is after the fact. One can change the character of a piece of music through remixing without altering the original equalization of any of the individual tracks or performing any electronic filtering or enhancements whatsoever. While one could perform a remaster from a mastertape, you need the original individual multitrack masters to do a remix.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    It isn't an accurate comparison twixt a remaster and a remix. Twiddly or not, a remix is before the fact and a remaster is after the fact. While one could perform a remaster from a mastertape, you need the original individual multitrack masters to do a remix.
    Then what do you call the "My Life In The Bush of Ghosts" re-issue, where they went back to the original multi-tracks, cleaned up each individual instrument, and then recreated the original mixes to the nth degree?

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    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Then what do you call the "My Life In The Bush of Ghosts" re-issue, where they went back to the original multi-tracks, cleaned up each individual instrument, and then recreated the original mixes to the nth degree?
    A remix, of course. Are you under the impression that this is somehow ambiguous? A remix that is intended to duplicate the original mix exactly is still a remix, and it's a completely separate process from mastering.
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    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Many remastered reissues don't involve remixing at all

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    A remix, of course. Are you under the impression that this is somehow ambiguous? A remix that is intended to duplicate the original mix exactly is still a remix
    Well, you see my point I'm sure. If the original mix is duplicated, but they cleaned up the multi-tracks, calling it "a remix" instead of "a remaster" is misleading at best -- even if accurate.

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    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Well, you see my point I'm sure. If the original mix is duplicated, but they cleaned up the multi-tracks, calling it "a remix" instead of "a remaster" is misleading at best -- even if accurate.
    I don't see any point at all in not calling a remix what it is. Mixing and mastering are two separate steps in the process of preparing a recording for release. They are commonly performed by different people, as is the case with the Steven Wilson projects that started this digression. What Wilson does is remixing. Someone else then does the mastering of the results.
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    I think remixes can be conservative or radical. To be honest, I prefer the former; I'm usually OK with changes to instrumental/vocal mix placement, cleaning up the murk and things like that, but I rarely like full-scale changes to the actual music. See Frank Zappa and Richard Carpenter's heavy-duty tampering on certain releases, those two actually re-recorded instrumental parts in some cases. I'd include Nick Davis' Genesis stereo remixes amongst remixes I don't like as well.

    I know things like the 90s Byrds/Simon and Garfunkel CDs were remixed but the differences were apparently very minor; it was allegedly down to wear on the original stereo mixdown tapes that they were done.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Semantics. Unimportant in my book.

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    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Semantics. Unimportant in my book.
    LOL!

    "Look at that hairy fish!"
    "That's a cat."
    "Bah! Semantics."
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    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    ^ ^ ^

    beat me to it.

    another guy who wants to compare apples and rocks....
    Steve F.

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    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  24. #24
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    When I see an album or song that has been "remixed" by someone, I do not immediately think, "Ah, I'll bet it sounds EXACTLY like the original release -- only cleaner."

    To me, that's the goal of a remaster.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 05-29-2018 at 03:51 PM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I think remixes can be conservative or radical. To be honest, I prefer the former; I'm usually OK with changes to instrumental/vocal mix placement, cleaning up the murk and things like that, but I rarely like full-scale changes to the actual music. See Frank Zappa and Richard Carpenter's heavy-duty tampering on certain releases, those two actually re-recorded instrumental parts in some cases. I'd include Nick Davis' Genesis stereo remixes amongst remixes I don't like as well.
    .
    One remix that I thought was really good was the 1990 version of Layla And Other Assorted Love Songs. According to Wikipedia there were a lot of "significant changes", but I don't remember it being that different from my old cassette copy of the original mix. They moved the bass from hard left or hard right (I forget which side it was panned to) to center, and then built new mixes around that, but I think it mostly sounded the same. The things I remember being different were the "Woo!" during the intro of, I think, Keep On Growing, which had been mixed out on the original version, and they potted up the parts that Duane Allman (on dobro), Carl Radle and Jim Gordon (playing hand percussion, I think one is playing a triangle, I forget what the other is playing) that had been originally muted.

    I know things like the 90s Byrds/Simon and Garfunkel CDs were remixed but the differences were apparently very minor; it was allegedly down to wear on the original stereo mixdown tapes that they were done.
    Were they? I didn't realize they had remixed The Byrds albums. The thing I remember was when they put out that 'best of the leftovers" collection in the 80's, Never Before, where they overdubbed a new drum track in place of Michael Clarke's original playing on Lady Friend. It had previously only being released on a single in the 60's and a couple import compilations during the 70's, so I'd never had a chance to hear the original version. I know it's generally considered at best inauthentic and at worst downright heretical, but I missed that snare drum crack that you hear at the end of the intro, just before the rest of the band came in, when I finally heard the proper version that was used on the Younger Than Yesterday remaster. So I had to track down a CD copy of Never Before (which proved a lot easier than I had expected) just so I could have that lame 80's remix that I knew from the Never Before LP.
    Last edited by GuitarGeek; 05-29-2018 at 04:58 PM.

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