Bruford lecturing on creativity in music performance

[proggy_jazzer]

You know, I watched the lecture, but not the Q & A; if I had been there I might have asked him to talk about where he would place himself, say either with Crimson or Earthworks, on the creativity continuum he uses in the lecture.

[Tom]

... going into Jazz which I think is less creative than prog.

I think this is a question of how close you are to the picture. To listeners like us, Prog seems more creative because there is a greater variety of sounds, textures, tempos, etc. as we sample one album after another.
But to the live performer, embedded in the same group playing the same music every night on tour, this large-scale creativity does not matter. He is immersed in the small-scale repetitiveness of playing the same thing over and over -- even if that same thing is "And You and I" or "Starless"! This is what Bruford wanted to leave behind.

[Zeuhlmate]

Jazz goes from Louis Armstrong over Charlie Parker to total avantgarde. Some considers Holdsworth to be jazz.
The instrumentation goes from banjo and clarinet to guitar synths, laptops and tape loops.

[Zeuhlmate]

Btw - Afterwards I asked Bruford where he would place Keith Moon on the 'creactivity continuum'.

I was curious because I can't figure any other drummer on a top level, that is more different from Bruford than him, and I have never heard Bruford mention him.
Keith Moon can't compose (well he made a solo album ), and he cant really play anything but The Who's music - on the other hand he contributes and boost the tracks in a unique way no other drummer could have done, and live he plays them differently almost every time.

Bruford placed him in the creative end, he found KM quite interesting, but hadn't time to elaborate since there was a line of people waiting for him to sign their LP's & CD's.

[Progatron]

But to the live performer, embedded in the same group playing the same music every night on tour, this large-scale creativity does not matter. He is immersed in the small-scale repetitiveness of playing the same thing over and over -- even if that same thing is "And You and I" or "Starless"! This is what Bruford wanted to leave behind.

Very true, and something he has mentioned in multiple interviews. I recall one where he said "Put it this way, how would you like to go on a months-long tour of this exact conversation? Every night you say the same thing, and I say the same response."

Btw - Afterwards I asked Bruford where he would place Keith Moon on the 'creactivity continuum'.


Bruford placed him in the creative end, he found KM quite interesting, but hadn't time to elaborate since there was a line of people waiting for him to sign their LP's & CD's.

Perhaps he's grown fonder over the years. Peter Banks said that in the early Yes days, Bill had written "Moon go home" on his shoes!

[Zeuhlmate]

Perhaps he's grown fonder over the years. Peter Banks said that in the early Yes days, Bill had written "Moon go home" on his shoes!

Or just more mature, one can't deny that KM was one of a kind.
But in BB's defence you could say that Moon couldn't / wouldn't keep time, and to most drummers/bands that is bad. BB was rock solid.

[Skullhead]

I prefer Bill on a drum stool over a lecture chair.

I just can't imagine caring about Bill's opinion of other rock or jazz drummers. It's just weird.

[regenerativemusic]

I prefer Bill on a drum stool over a lecture chair.

I just can't imagine caring about Bill's opinion of other rock or jazz drummers. It's just weird.

I don't think he's giving his "opinion" so much as trying to establish quantified academic criteria to put them on some kind of a spectrum. Granted, that can be misused to inject personal opinions.

[Zeuhlmate]

I don't think he's giving his "opinion" so much as trying to establish quantified academic criteria to put them on some kind of a spectrum. Granted, that can be misused to inject personal opinions.

Precisely.

[Paulrus]

Or just more mature, one can't deny that KM was one of a kind.
But in BB's defence you could say that Moon couldn't / wouldn't keep time, and to most drummers/bands that is bad. BB was rock solid.

I get the feeling that as far as BB is concerned, creativity happens the moment any musician allows themselves to go "off script" in their performances. KM certainly had that in abundance!

[bondegezou]

I don't think he's giving his "opinion" so much as trying to establish quantified academic criteria to put them on some kind of a spectrum. Granted, that can be misused to inject personal opinions.

Indeed, and it's not for the purpose of ranking musicians. It's in order to understand the nature of creativity in the field of drumming.

Henry

[floyd umma gumma]

I remember reading something a few years ago wherein someone asked Bruford about the Moon writing on his shoes. Bill admitted this was true, and pointed out that he was a teenager when he did that, and said that at the time he did not care for Moon's drumming - but then he added "I have since revised my opinion" of Moon.

[Scrotum Scissor]

as far as BB is concerned, creativity happens the moment any musician allows themselves to go "off script" in their performance.

Which is about as stereotypical, conventional and non-controversial a stance on creativity as any erstwhile platitude allows, not to mention a doom-laden judgement on the alleged valor of purported "progressive" rock, seeing as the latter has traditionally been perceived as rigid and static commitment to scheme. It's also paradoxically an odd position as far as Bruford's own approach has mostly gone, not least in light of his sole input with an actual scripter's band during the 70s (prior to his own enterprise), National Health; his programmatic or near-mechanical drums/percussions on their early recordings are notably the weakest part of chain.

something he has mentioned in multiple interviews. I recall one where he said "Put it this way, how would you like to go on a months-long tour of this exact conversation? Every night you say the same thing, and I say the same response."

Which is sort of ironic, as I heard the exact same argument and apparently on the precise same topic almost eight years back at his lecture during the Punkt festival in Kristiansand. Meaning he either tends to repeat himself rather bluntly or, opposed as it may seem, stay pretty fond of tricky contradictions.

immersed in the small-scale repetitiveness of playing the same thing over and over -- even if that same thing is "And You and I" or "Starless"!

When did these two titles somehow become an a priori apex of diversity, complexity or creativity in musical achievement, in need of underpinning quotation mark?

I personally think his playing, like so many others of his generation, was most creative in the 1970s. He consciously seemed to be going in a less creative way, going into Jazz which I think is less creative than prog. I personally don't like Crimson past the 1970s and so whatever "creativity" was in that music may not be as creative as it seems.

I don't particularly dig post-70s KC myself, but this lack of personal adherence can hardly serve as verification of creative absence in the music. Bruford's playing was creative with Yes and KC (especially), but significantly less so with more advanced composition as in National Health, in which his usually boasted inprovisational flare and gusto suddenly appeared intimidated into stringent order. His obvious style of playing may have remained firm, but there were few risks taken and as such his performances there do not attest to versatility. However, with the Bruford band he could yield the role of guidance to his own benefit, meaning that the other writers would adapt to his approach and thus come up with material which better exposed his skills and flexibilities. The problem with 80s KC, to my ears, was the shortcomings of their orientation or navigation in carving a new identity, as there was practically very little radical or bold about what they ended up doing on those three albums. There were some nice melodies and fine chops, some splendid ideas and classy conceptions - but others did it harder, with a different edge, imagination and currency. As such I was even more surprised to learn how his Earthworks project actually sounded all the more understated and hesitant, hearing as he'd finally realized his anticipated "jazz" combo.

But how is "jazz" less creative than "prog"? If the culture of genre could speak, this is simply plain wrong. Jazz has, by a large percentage of its followers, been allowed not only a continuity of long-running evolution but of paradigmatic breach and revolt. As a result, there's a constant recruitment of new and younger audiences as well. Academic and institutional studies in music generally reflect this status of the genre, but more importantly there's a global movement to document its vitality. Festivals, media, artists and not least the accomplishments and rosters of highly prominent contemporary labels like Tzadik, Clean Feed, Rune Grammofon and numerous others display a world of audial thought and practice which transcends even that of nominally "highbrow" modern art musics, encompassing everything between experimental rock through electronic, folk and contemporary composition. And they can actually read and write, they can orchestrate and improvise in accordance with formal and theoretical discourse; most traits which the "big" (i.e. commercially successful) harbingers of 70s progressive rock were only able to by self-image. And we all know how this latter image is the one enduring rendition of "prog" that seeks to prevail; most truly creative artists in rock today would rather be left out of that bin - and often for those very same reasons.

Bruford is witty, entertaining and insightful. What puzzled and perhaps disappointed me on attending his workshop lecture back then was how he didn't appear to bother much with actual real-life happenings and developments in the exact field he claimed to examine; signs and modes of creativity in ongoing music, be it modern radical rock or jazz. He preached on the basis of principle and theory, not as empirical lore outside of his own experience and merit. Having been a member of Yes and KC (and possibly also his association with Health, U.K. a.o.) may have drawn a crowd of spectators whose attendance was down to merely that, and so the point of address got less rewarding.

[regenerativemusic]

As far as Prog being more creative than Jazz as an opinion, that's almost like saying one artist is better than another. It's subjective. If you take Tangerine Dream as Prog as some do, and Magma, Yes, ELP, National Health, Slapp Happy and all the people associated with these bands, and analyze the modalities, it's an interesting topic. Maybe Bill might lecture on it one day. I can see the two as being equal but I look at classical as truly the most creative expression and to me prog is closer to classical, but it's not close enough. These musics stand on their own, but after all we are talking about creativity: conscious choice of expression, not falling back on patterns.

[regenerativemusic]

Terry Riley ‎- Happy Ending (1972) FULL ALBUM

Regarding post-70s King Crimson it is like minimalistic rock. Being a big fan of Einstein of the Beach by Philip Glass, which is like a mothership of skill compared to so much other minimalism, it's hard to get excited by other examples of minimalism outside of classical or some Zeuhl. The Riley piece above is just one example of what you hear in later King Crimson.

[Tom]

... The Riley piece above is just one example of what you hear in later King Crimson.

I'm not convinced. If King Crimson's sole accomplishment was to breathe life into these dry-as-dust exercises, that's worth it to me.

[regenerativemusic]

Terry Riley - A Rainbow in Curved Air - Full CD (HQ)

This one is much more interesting but more well known so I posted the other.

[Scrotum Scissor]

If King Crimson's sole accomplishment was to breathe life into these dry-as-dust exercises, that's worth it to me.

Yup, that's why Bruford's lectures are so authoritative; he was in a band who even outdid Terry Riley by the tenfolds.

[gallen1964]

I prefer Bill on a drum stool over a lecture chair.

I just can't imagine caring about Bill's opinion of other rock or jazz drummers. It's just weird.

I enjoy BB's rather arch delivery but sometimes think it's bit snarky and triumphalist. I saw one of his early talks at Swiss Cottage library 10 years ago, small audience, launch of his book, had coffee with him. But when he pulls those faces about Chris Squire , I partly think, hang on Yes kind of put you on the map, Squire in particular contributed enormously to his fame as a rhythm section master.

Of course waiting for people and repetition must get very dull, but it's a lot better than some other jobs.

And agree with previous comment that across interviews, books and magazine articles BB himself (inevitably) can get bit repetitive.

As I said I m a huge fan but just feel sometimes his comments lack a bit of grace.

[FrippWire]

Terry Riley ‎- Happy Ending (1972) FULL ALBUM

^^^
Thanks for posting this. Even if I don't understand the connection to King Crimson, I enjoyed this enough that I bought a copy.