In The Wake Of Poseidon: Why is it considered such a step down from the debut?

[Progatron]

I often hear cries of "clone!" when this album comes up, in that people view it as a carbon-copy, stylistically, of In The Court Of The Crimson King. First of all, I don't know that I fully agree with that, but more importantly, if it were true it wouldn't make it any less valid or enjoyable a listen for me personally. I've always had a real attraction to this record. Perhaps it feels more....experimental, although certainly not more so than the next few that were to come. The debut is a hallmark album, no doubt. A cornerstone of the genre, and a fantastic one at that. But historical importance aside, I tend to prefer Poseidon - and not because Crimson King is 'overplayed'... I think in my case I just prefer one batch of songs to another.

I'm curious as to the thoughts of the PE members. The Crimson fans, the haters, the knowledgeable, the elderly, the sarcastic one-liners, the ultra-opinionated, the fanboys, and Fripp himself (I think he fits ALL those categories in one). Let's hear from all of you!

[polmico]

Well, the title track acts a lot like "Epitaph," but it's not as good. "Pictures of a City" is a good song. In fact, it's a real good song, but it sort of apes "Schizoid Man," doesn't it. It's easy to imagine that the band did this on purpose as it struggled to keep itself together on the American tour. Remember, the song started out as "A Man, A City" and was played (and presumably written) by the '69 band (though Fripp and Sinfield take the only writing credits for it on the album). "Cadence and Cascade" is a nice song, played well by the '71-'72 touring band, and "Cat Food" is a lot of fun with some great piano from Tippett.

I'm ok with the album up to this point, then.

The album falls apart for me with "The Devil's Triangle." It's just "Mars," right? I mean, with some variations and some cool bits, but it's just Holst's "Mars," and the '69 band had already played that.

Clone? Carbon copy? Nah but not really full of new ideas. A stop gap album, and, for me, the weakest album in the KC canon despite having a real classic ("Pictures").

[mogrooves]

That it recapitulates the template and vocabulary of the first LP is less a musical argument than an ideological one based on romanticist and modernist ideas that equate value with ongoing innovation. For reasons not only musical, Fripp opted to work within a familiar language and consequently produced a muthafucker of an album, in some ways an improvement on the first; the Giles Bros. are joined at the hip and Tippett is hipper than hip.

Not a "step down", just a lateral move.....

[Soc Prof]

I prefer it to the debut as well. And while I see it maintaining the general style of the first album, I wouldn't call it a clone.

[Progatron]

Beautifully stated mogrooves. Truly.

[Joe F.]

Not a "step down", just a lateral move.....

Agree 100%.

I also love "The Devil's Triangle", regardless if it's "just" Mars.

[GuitarGeek]

It's a moot point to me, because I consider Lizard to be a step up from both of the first two albums.

[NogbadTheBad]

Well I love the debut but Poseidon is worthy on its own merits.

[Progatron]

It's a moot point to me, because I consider Lizard to be a step up from both of the first two albums.

Aha! A whole other discussion, but of course welcomed here. I'm a big fan of Lizard AND Islands for that matter but I do think Poseidon is my favourite of the first four. "Cirkus" may just be the best opening track of them all though for me personally.

[Yanks2014]

That it recapitulates the template and vocabulary of the first LP is less a musical argument than an ideological one based on romanticist and modernist ideas that equate value with ongoing innovation. For reasons not only musical, Fripp opted to work within a familiar language and consequently produced a muthafucker of an album, in some ways an improvement on the first; the Giles Bros. are joined at the hip and Tippett is hipper than hip.
Not a "step down", just a lateral move.....

Wow, I didn't understand any of your first sentence, not a word, but totally agree with your second sentence. I really like this album, and yet do understand the complaints that its maybe too "familiar" as it mined very similar territory. But then their is "Cat Food", which I can't think of a single Crimson song is sounds anything like.

I'm baffled their would be a problem with the inclusion of "Devil's Triangle". True, the band had tackled Mars, but only in a live setting. Why shouldn't they have recorded a studio version of it? It would have seemed strange to NOT record this after playing it live. My only problem is the super quiet intro, you can hardly hear anything the first 45 seconds or so, but the rest is pretty cool. And of course its super creepy, kind of the Crimson way, compared to the more straightforward but still intense ELPowell version in the 80's, which I also happen to love.

Bottom line, I was rather surprised how good this album was after hearing so many complaints over many years. I never actually heard this album until 4 to 5 years ago, but consider it essential Crimson.

[polmico]

I'm baffled there would be a problem with the inclusion of "Devil's Triangle".

I don't like it.

Nothing baffling about that. If you need a reason, I think it's boring, overlong and doesn't go anywhere--though I do like the sample of the "In the Court of the Crimson King" vocal toward the end.

If it matters, I don't really like KC's cover of "Mars" either.

[polmico]

It would have seemed strange to NOT record this after playing it live.

If that seems strange, then how strange is it that they didn't record "Mantra" and "Travel Weary Capricorn" or "Drop In"? Or if they were just going to record a cover, albeit with out-there moments, why not do "Get Thy Bearings"?

I'd be much happier with Poseidon had it included "Mantra/Capricorn" and "Drop In," though I do like how Fripp recycled "Drop In" for Islands. "The Letters" is a better song than "Drop In." And, yeah, part of "Mantra" was eventually turned into "Exiles," but the full song was so cool.

Missed opportunity, if you ask me.

[80s were ok]

i'm confused - when was this album considered "such a step down from the debut"? Who said that? According to who? The Band?

[GuitarGeek]

Aha! A whole other discussion, but of course welcomed here. I'm a big fan of Lizard AND Islands for that matter but I do think Poseidon is my favourite of the first four. "Cirkus" may just be the best opening track of them all though for me personally.

I dunno, I've never warmed up to the first two for some reason. They're good records, to be sure, but somehow it seems to me like a page was turned with Lizard. It was somehow quirkier, more eccentric, and seemed to have more of that weird "Euro jazz" vibe than the first two albums (which struck me as more "classical" sounding, and not in a post-WWII kind of way either). And I also love that fuzz guitar solo Fripp plays near the end of Lizard, as well as the synth and ring modulated vocals on Happy Family.

[Progatron]

somehow it seems to me like a page was turned with Lizard. It was somehow quirkier, more eccentric, and seemed to have more of that weird "Euro jazz" vibe than the first two albums

Oh, most certainly. I wouldn't change a note! A beautiful album in all respects, right down to the qualities of lesser importance like the awesome cover art.

[Digital_Man]

Because for at least half of it it follows the same formula with the same styled songs. It's a bit of a copy cat. It's only on side two of IWOP that it takes on it's own identity and doesn't copy the debut so much.

[Progatron]

i'm confused - when was this album considered "such a step down from the debut"?

Oh, I'd say for like the last... what, forty-two? Forty-three years.

Who said that?

A huge amount of fans I've either spoken with or whose opinions I've read. Or, for that matter, any of the more popular prog-focused websites with 'scoring' systems.

According to who?

According to.... wait, I already answered this.

The Band?

Nah. Chances are, that would have been made evident in the initial post. I'm sorry it confused you so. I did ask for all types of responses though, so you have done your duty and I tip my cap to you!

[80s were ok]

I dunno- sounds like you just have an opinion and just assume the rest of the prog world is on board with you....

[PROGMONSTER]

Poseidon is a better album. Better songs, better sound, more variety. It's not a copy. That's how crimson sounded at the time. The debut has way too much mellotron. It drags on. There's no song like cat food or cadence on the debut. Schizoid sounds like the Beatles in the verses. Poseidon is a step up

[80s were ok]

Poseidon is a better album. Better songs, better sound, more variety. It's not a copy. That's how crimson sounded at the time. The debut has way too much mellotron. It drags on. There's no song like cat food or cadence on the debut. Schizoid sounds like the Beatles in the verses. Poseidon is a step up

[Zeuhlmate]

Poseidon is a better album. Better songs, better sound, more variety. It's not a copy. That's how crimson sounded at the time. The debut has way too much mellotron. It drags on. There's no song like cat food or cadence on the debut. Schizoid sounds like the Beatles in the verses. Poseidon is a step up

Seconded

[Trane]

I often hear cries of "clone!" when this album comes up, in that people view it as a carbon-copy, stylistically, of In The Court Of The Crimson King. First of all, I don't know that I fully agree with that, but more importantly, if it were true it wouldn't make it any less valid or enjoyable a listen for me personally.

Well, that's valid for Side A only, IMHO...The three tracks on it are definitely totamlly inspired on Court's A-side

the Poseidon flipside is rather different, and nothing like Court

Now, whether you don't mind a band repeating itself artistically speaking on the A-side, then there is no reasons not to enjoy it equally.... If the Poseidon songs are less original, they are better-recorded than in Court

This said, I wish somday that Groon is included in the album (other than the bonus in the 40th anniv version)

[GuitarGeek]

This said, I wish somday that Groon is included in the album (other than the bonus in the 40th anniv version)

Ya know, now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever heard the studio version of Groon. How is it?

[Trane]

Ya know, now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever heard the studio version of Groon. How is it?

The only place I ever heard it on, is the Young Person's Guide to KC, and I haven't heard in a looooooog time (on top of it, my TT is broken down right now

[flytomars]

Perhaps in realtime, Poseidon did not have the same impact as the debut (for obvious reasons).
I personally tend to re-visit this one more often than the debut, and regard it as an improvement- stronger songs, better playing etc.
I do agree that the formula is the same as the first (song by song comparison, with cat food being the odd one out).
Do I mind? not really.