Star Wars: The Last Jedi (For those who have seen it - SPOILERS abound!)

[Facelift]

It's easy to pick things apart if that is one's goal. No movie is perfect. I think if you come away from a film looking for faults, maybe try watching it again from a different perspective? My brother had lots of grievances about the movie after seeing it, then we saw it together again a few days later and he really liked it. *shrug*

The movie did grave disservice to the existing Star Wars universe, and it was a poorly made film in the technical sense of being the middle film of a trilogy, as it destroyed the continuity. This is not a consequence of "no movie being perfect" or "having a goal to find fault;" those are absurd rationalizations that don't in any way diminish the potency of the waves of criticism being heaped on this film by long-time fans of the franchise.

To make the point more philosophical: these films have an incredibly large, incredibly loyal audience built in, which will make these films financially successful beyond the wildest dreams of most filmmakers - almost regardless of what product they put out. Shouldn't this be taken with a high degree of gravity and respect, especially since the people currently making these films had this large and loyal audience gifted to them by someone else? IMO there is a problem when the viewers on the ratings aggregate sites rate a franchise film so poorly, regardless of how well it's doing with professional critics.

[Yodelgoat]

I enjoy Sci-Fi - and or space fantasy, not only for the entertainment, but also for insights into actual science. Michio Kaku wrote a book called "the physics of the impossible" and it basically looks at sci-fi (star Wars specifically) from a physics perspective. It was fun, it was enjoyable, and it clarified many of the issues we are talking about. I liked how he addressed the issues with light sabres. One of the more improbable objects to ever exist. He addressed force fields, Spacetime, travelling at lightspeed... I may have to re-read it, based on the discussion here.

Some of us are looking at the quality of the story, for some of us, it's the science, some of us just wanna have fun, and I am in the last 2 camps. While I cannot bring myself to ever watch Episodes 2 and 3 again (worst acting and banter in any major movie EVER!), All of the others are great fun and worthy of my entertainment dollar. I just wish that Lukes life would have been more of an uplifting story. Its totally filled with regret and dismay, rejection of friends and family. He should have spent his life closer to those he held dear. Instead he abandons everything he held dear for decades. That's kind of pathetic. Kind of like how JK Rowling treats the beloved Harry Potter in Harry Potter and the cursed child... A kid with an incredible story turns out to be a schlub mid level - bureaucrat/loser. What a let down. She could have at least given him some kind of decent future. I feel like Luke has been likewise thrown out as mostly worthless - at least where it matters most - Family and Friends.

[Guitarplyrjvb]

Many of the characters are shallow doppelgangers from the original trilogy. There's nothing really new going on.

Darth Vader = Kylo Ren
Princess Leia = Laura Dern
Luke Skywalker = Rey
Admiral Motti = General Hux (there's always one of these guys to get abused by the Darth Vader character)
Palpatine = Snoke (always a scene with the conflicted apprentice and the new Jedi of the month)
Lando Calrissian = Benecio Del Toro
Han Solo = Poe Dameron
Boba Fett = Chrome Domed Storm Trooper
Death Star = Dreadnaught (The Force Awakens had another Death Star thingy).
R2-D2= BB-8

It's a kid's movie designed to sell toys and t-shirts!

The Force dissipated completely after the original trilogy. IMHO, of course.

[rcarlberg]

The movie did grave disservice to the existing Star Wars universe

You know what else violated the canon in TLJ?

Rebel ships being low on fuel. Fuel has NEVER been an issue in SW, to the point where in the last movie Rey discovers the Millennium Falcon sitting derelict in the desert, they hop in, and -- sure enough -- take off without any refueling necessary.

By pointing out the cracks in previous plotlines, director Rian Johnson has opened up the whole series to analysis for logic errors.

[aith01]

The movie did grave disservice to the existing Star Wars universe, and it was a poorly made film in the technical sense of being the middle film of a trilogy, as it destroyed the continuity. This is not a consequence of "no movie being perfect" or "having a goal to find fault;" those are absurd rationalizations that don't in any way diminish the potency of the waves of criticism being heaped on this film by long-time fans of the franchise.

To make the point more philosophical: these films have an incredibly large, incredibly loyal audience built in, which will make these films financially successful beyond the wildest dreams of most filmmakers - almost regardless of what product they put out. Shouldn't this be taken with a high degree of gravity and respect, especially since the people currently making these films had this large and loyal audience gifted to them by someone else? IMO there is a problem when the viewers on the ratings aggregate sites rate a franchise film so poorly, regardless of how well it's doing with professional critics.

I wholeheartedly disagree. It didn't "destroy" the continuity, and it was not a poorly made film.

But that's okay, you don't have to like TLJ -- just like I don't have to dislike it.

[aith01]

You know what else violated the canon in TLJ?

Rebel ships being low on fuel. Fuel has NEVER been an issue in SW, to the point where in the last movie Rey discovers the Millennium Falcon sitting derelict in the desert, they hop in, and -- sure enough -- take off without any refueling necessary.

By pointing out the cracks in previous plotlines, director Rian Johnson has opened up the whole series to analysis for logic errors.

This probably seems like I'm being pedantic, but the Falcon actually wasn't derelict in TFA. It belonged (at that point in time) to the scavenger guy that Rey worked/slaved for, so it was probably still kept in running condition.

While the subject of fuel has never really come up in the series, it makes sense that the ships would have to run on something, so I didn't have a problem with it being used in this movie. Star Wars has never been a franchise to hold up to much logical scrutiny anyway, IMO.

[rcarlberg]

This probably seems like I'm being pedantic, but the Falcon actually wasn't derelict in TFA. It belonged (at that point in time) to the scavenger guy that Rey worked/slaved for, so it was probably still kept in running condition.

Up until TLJ I assumed the ships ran on some inexhaustible power source like dilithium crystals or a Mr. Fusion.

[Yodelgoat]

Hehehe! I guess I am not the only one who wonders Who Kylo Ren really is...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAkF6Vvqxuf/?hl=en

[Facelift]

But that's okay, you don't have to like TLJ -- just like I don't have to dislike it.

Very true. That doesn't change the fact that it was a very poorly made film, however.

[Baribrotzer]

IMO there is a problem when the viewers on the ratings aggregate sites rate a franchise film so poorly, regardless of how well it's doing with professional critics.

At the risk of getting political, those ratings-aggregate site figures may have not been for real. Some of the old Gamergate crowd were vastly offended by such "politically correct" elements as making Rey, a woman, the main protagonist, or the casting of John Boyega, a black man, as Finn. Or, worst of all, by having Poe, a white male hero, lose a position he assumed was his to Vice Admiral Holdo, another woman, and be scolded by her for his heroic foolhardiness.

And so they unleashed a mighty bot army, and filled those ratings-aggregate sites with millions upon millions of duplicate bad reviews. Do not offend the old Gamergate crowd, for though they may be flabby, pimply, poor on hygiene, and live in their moms' basements, they have limitless keyboard courage, a limitless thirst for vengeance, a limitless imagination for bloodcurdling threats, and are mighty on the Internet. Not just the Internet, anymore, either - they're one core constituency of that current movement known as the alt-right.

[Yodelgoat]

though they may be flabby, pimply, poor on hygiene, and live in their moms' basements, they have limitless keyboard courage, a limitless thirst for vengeance, a limitless imagination for bloodcurdling threats, and are mighty on the Internet. Not just the Internet, anymore, either - they're one core constituency of that current movement known as the alt-right.

I sat next to this guy at the theater! - I did not ask him for his political affiliation though. The smell of his BO, just kept me from even contemplate what his breath might smell like! These geeks are real, they actually exist! This guy knew everything Star Wars related...

When I go see the film again, I am smuggling in a bottle of Polo spray, so I dont have to live through another 3+ hour experience with a Star Wars freak's "hygienic anomalies..."

[Jack in Wilmington]

Very true. That doesn't change the fact that it was a very poorly made film, however.

In your opinion and to be sure you're in the minority because most of the voting public near me have given it 5 stars. We get it that you didn't like it, move on. You obviously went to the movie with the pre conceived notion that you wouldn't like it.

[Facelift]

In your opinion and to be sure you're in the minority because most of the voting public near me have given it 5 stars. We get it that you didn't like it, move on. You obviously went to the movie with the pre conceived notion that you wouldn't like it.

Nope. I went in with the pre-conceived notion that I would love it. And most of the voting public does give it 5 stars - out of 10, however. It is generally loathed by the people who are watching it.

[Facelift]

At the risk of getting political, those ratings-aggregate site figures may have not been for real. Some of the old Gamergate crowd were vastly offended by such "politically correct" elements as making Rey, a woman, the main protagonist, or the casting of John Boyega, a black man, as Finn. Or, worst of all, by having Poe, a white male hero, lose a position he assumed was his to Vice Admiral Holdo, another woman, and be scolded by her for his heroic foolhardiness.

But these same issues were present in The Force Awakens, and the fan reviews were generally good.

[aith01]

That's a fair explanation regarding how Kylo killed Snoke. I didn't feel all that depth in the moment myself.

In regards to Snoke's downfall, I would submit that you're channeling Palpatine in RotJ. Since Snoke in TFA was pretty much playing the role Palpatine played in Empire (hologram overlord), and his early screen time in TLJ was essentially Vader in Empire (toying with the imperials), I really think it requires more character development (or at least some ha) to bring out the flaws in a character other than what occurred just in that scene alone. In the end Snoke was pretty much one-dimensional. In the end I didn't feel as if Snoke's flaws brought him down as much as the actual dialog in the scene.

I agree that Snoke was pretty one-dimenstional, but that's actually not a problem for me. He was basically another Emperor character, bent on galactic domination or whatever. Assuming the fan theories were incorrect and that he wasn't Darth Plagueis (which would have been cool, but I doubt he was), his identity/backstory wasn't that important to these films. There will probably be some lore that comes out to expand on him, or he may get more explanation in the next movie, but for the story of these new characters to progress, I think he had to go.

Palpatine was also essentially a plot device in the OT, and when we did learn about how he rose to power in the prequels, it didn't really make him any more interesting. He was apparently always an evil old guy who wanted to rule the galaxy. IMO, Kylo is more interesting as a villain because of what led him to this place and how unhinged it has made him. To see him leapfrog his master and become Supreme Leader is a good development for the character to me.

If I recall correctly, didn't Rey actually call Snoke arrogant or overconfident in that scene?

In that scene she said that he underestimated Kylo, Skywalker, and her, which is when he then goes on to explain what he had been doing all along.

Imagine if you're watching any serial tv or film and they change writers in the middle of it. I think by referring to these movies as trilogies and also episodic chapters, there is an inherent expectation there to write a story with the trilogy in mind, not the chapter. Switching authors in the middle (twice mind you) is going to give the project as a whole a disjointed feel.

That's certainly true. However, to infer that Rian Johnson intentionally just made his story choices to be disruptive is assuming an awful lot, IMO. And going into this trilogy, I thought it was made public knowledge pretty early on that each movie was going to have a different writer and director (before Trevorrow was let go).

I think it's difficult to compare the original trilogy with the sequel trilogy in this way as the sequel trilogy was conceived as exactly that, whereas Star Wars was a standalone film. Depending on which accounts you believe, there was nothing conceived beyond the original film until late 1977. Once that was explored is when Lucas started talking about a grand plan of 9 movies and spinoffs, and that there was a backstory to Vader's character.

And Lucas was intimately involved (he was a control freak) in the development of both Empire and Return. And even though there were a few profound changes to the grand scheme (Vader not originally being Luke's father, Leia not originally being Luke's sister, Luke does not confront the Emperor), Lucas himself is the one who made these changes, not a third party.

And, indeed, these profound changes were head scratchers because they had to be explained away on screen. As Ben states... "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view". LOL

And didn't we all cringe a bit that moment when we realized "dude, you kissed your sister".

Sloppy then, sloppy now.

Such is the nature of long-form storytelling in movies and television.

One of the biggest differences between the original trilogy and the prequels was that Lucas had too much control over the latter, IMO. I don't fault him for making those movies the way he wanted to, since it was his story -- I don't even fault him for going back and making revisions to the originals, even though I don't agree with it. For me, the Star Wars universe is bigger than just those films, and having some fresh blood driving the new films is a positive because it opens up new possibilities.

I'm fairly certain I read it was Johnson's decision to kill him off.

I hadn't read this, but if you have a link please share. I do remember an interview with Andy Serkis where he said that we wouldn't learn much about Snoke in TLJ, and I think Abrams and others said the same thing.

I like discussing this kind of subject, but really dislike when critical thought is being trivialized as "nitpicking". I know you're speaking generally, but if you think I paid $45 (3 tix) so that I could bitch about TLJ on a prog board, you don't know me very well.

We have a problem with PE in general on this issue. Praise needs no explanation, but criticism needs a defense.

Some critiques are certainly valid, and I enjoy discussing them with others (like the Snoke thing above). I don't believe you went to the movie looking to find fault with it, and even if you came away with problems I hope that by discussing some of them maybe you see them in a different light (and the same goes for me).

However, I still think that there is nitpicking going on -- not just here, but all over the Internet. For example, picking apart what are termed "plot holes" but actually aren't. A great article on this subject can be found here:

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2012/10/...nd-movie-logic

(Note: The author writes "in character" as the Hulk, but is very insightful. )

On the subject of praise vs. criticism, I've tried to explain why I loved this movie, and some of the things that I loved about it specifically. There are of course things that I didn't care for, but I haven't focused on those yet.

To your other point, when TFA was released, I enjoyed it but had a really hard time getting over just to what egregious levels they copped A New Hope. It was a fair and legitimate criticism that many others stated. Once I got over that, when I saw it a second time, I watched with that context out of the way.

I will see TLJ again and face it the same way because - in the end - I can't help but be a Star Wars fan. It's an important part of my childhood. And those films and Raiders inspired my career as well.

Seeing both movies twice improved my overall feeling each time. TFA was fun, and I loved the new characters -- and Han and Chewie -- but it felt a little too safe and familiar. To be fair, I had built up my expectations to probably unreasonable levels, and once I came down from that after seeing it again I was able to just enjoy it. With The Last Jedi, I didn't really know what to expect going in, and that probably helped.

After seeing The Last Jedi, my brother and I discussed it over dinner and a few beers. He had a lot of grievances with it, whereas I didn't, and we talked about some of the things we liked and didn't like. It was a lot of fun actually, just having a reasoned discussion about it. I kinda wish I could do the same with some of you guys here, sit down and talk about it face to face over a beer.

[battema]

Among my friends in their 40's (big fans from the original trilogy) it's mixed. Some really loved it, some liked it but had reservations, some really disliked it.

Outside the more "hardcore" fan base, opinions seem to skew pretty strongly toward the positive based on exit polls and other surveys.

Apparently the RT audience score was gamed by some disgruntled folks who have issues with Disney, etc., and a bit too much time on their hands.

One other point that hasn't come up as much in comparing TFA and TLJ is the expectations: TFA was the first new Star Wars film in about a decade, whereas TLJ is the third Star Wars film in as many years. This is the price Disney will pay for making Star Wars a yearly event; expectations and anticipation are going to dimish over time. It isn't the approach *I* would have taken but, shockingly enough no one @ Disney called to check and see how I felt before they proceeded with plans To that end, the fact that TLJ has performed as well as it has thus far is pretty commendable.

And I'm ultimately very curious to see what Johnson does when given a blank slate to create an entirely new series apart from existing characters and storylines.

[aith01]

And most of the voting public does give it 5 stars - out of 10, however. It is generally loathed by the people who are watching it.

I'd like to know where you get these "facts" from. Rotten Tomatoes shows a 54% audience rating. That means roughly half of the people going online to rate it there liked it, and half didn't.

Divisive? Maybe.

Generally loathed? No.

[battema]

After seeing The Last Jedi, my brother and I discussed it over dinner and a few beers. He had a lot of grievances with it, whereas I didn't, and we talked about some of the things we liked and didn't like. It was a lot of fun actually, just having a reasoned discussion about it. I kinda wish I could do the same with some of you guys here, sit down and talk about it face to face over a beer.

For most of us, I'm pretty sure that'd be good fun times

[battema]

I'd like to know where you get these "facts" from. Rotten Tomatoes shows a 54% audience rating. That means roughly half of the people going online to rate it there liked it, and half didn't.

Divisive? Maybe.

Generally loathed? No.

The RT user vote was "gamed" by some disgruntled people. Even that doesn't really reflect larger audience opinions.

CinemaScore gave it an 89%. TFA had a 90%, Rogue One 91%.

There's also this (quoted from Deadline article):

"Updated PostTrak audience polls show men over 25 repping the majority of attendees at 42% (with an overall 89% positive score), followed by men under 25 at 25% (90% positive), females over 25 at 23% (94% positive), and females under 25 at 10% (81% positive score). Definite recommend is now at a high 79%. Caucasians represented 62% of all ticket buyers, followed by 15% Hispanic, 10% Asian and 9% African-American. A rare five out five star audience rating on PostTrak."

[Gruno]

One other point that hasn't come up as much in comparing TFA and TLJ is the expectations: TFA was the first new Star Wars film in about a decade, whereas TLJ is the third Star Wars film in as many years.

And 5 months from now we will be discussing Solo, the next release from the "A Star Wars Story" series. Four Star Wars movies within 4 years! I've got a Star Wars boner from here to Mos Eisley... and it banked hard left, with a huge explosion in space that could be heard many light years away. Of course, I was on interstellar voice call while I was in light speed... actually, I was FaceTiming.

[battema]

Can't lie, my interest in the Solo movie isn't exactly high. I'm in, but not expecting much

But yeah...it is only 5 months away and no trailers or other hype. I was somewhat surprised they didn't put something in front of TLJ (christ knows they put a trailer for damned near every OTHER movie coming out in the next 12 months).

[dropforge]

Solo is a movie that shouldn't be happening. Those are mondo shoes to fill. Good luck to that actor. (And 80% of it was reshot under Ron, so I'm sure the budget ballooned.) I won't be surprised if it makes the least money of the new movies.

Rogue One is better than The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. But the latter's finale with Mark Hamill was worth the price of admission. He's the only reason I'll buy the movie on DVD. The Last Jedi is weighed down by epic problems, some boring characters, and a nice layer of cheese. I couldn't believe how bad the dialogue was for Hooks and Snoop, I mean Hux and Snoke. Those guys should've been given moustaches to twirl.

[rcarlberg]

The Last Jedi is weighed down by epic problems, some boring characters, and a nice layer of cheese. I couldn't believe how bad the dialogue was for Hooks and Snoop, I mean Hux and Snoke. Those guys should've been given moustaches to twirl.

TLJ was a Disney movie.

Kinda hard to forget. Kinda explains a lot. too.

[Zonefish]

Can't lie, my interest in the Solo movie isn't exactly high. I'm in, but not expecting much

Agree. But it's not the SW overload, it's I don't think Ron Howard's cinematic vision is a good fit. I find his "exciting" material a bit beige, heavily calculated and well...old!

So now that I saw TLJ, I fall into the camp of I really liked it. Yes, it had issues, but it isn't going to "ruin my childhood." It was a good story. It was generally fun and entertaining which is what I ask from these kind of movies--it doesn't need to be a quasi-religious experience. Just because a mythology doesn't align with a particular individual's perception, doesn't make it bad. ---but Luke would never do that---yes, apparently he would and that's okay.

However going forward it suffers from a villain problem. Snoke was underdeveloped, underused and dispatched too easily because of those first two reasons. It's fine that the whiny emo kid has vaulted himself to the position of Supreme Leader, but he's (from what we have seen on camera) not smart enough, not enough guile to run an empire much less a single ship. They need to work on the issue that he is so unpredictable, so unhinged that he is followed out of abject fear. They show a smidgen of that when he bitch slaps Hux. Anyway...just rambling now!

[Yodelgoat]

Wait, was Any Serkis (Golem) in the movie? Who was he? I need to get out more.

There is a Han Solo movie on the horizon too???? - Okay, my brain just swelled to dangerous proportions, and I feel an explosion coming on. I am very much into a Han Solo movie. Not many could pull off a decent Harry Ford's swagger, it might suck, but its a story that needs to be told. We know more about C3PO and R2D2 than the great scumbag/hero Han Solo. I'm in! I can always walk out. I have seen the worst (episodes 3 and 4) It cant get much worse than that. Unless they cast some whimpy girly-boy as Han Solo, or something bizarre like that... Harrison Ford might even be able to play the role himself - with a fair shot of CGI helping out.

I was visiting my mom in Jackson Wyoming in the winter of '98 and we took a sleigh ride out to see the elk on the reserve, and Harrison Ford and his Mrs, had their own private sleigh not far from ours. He smiled and waived at us and I was in awe. All the native "J-Hole-ites" refer to him simply as "Harrison", like they are all on a first name basis. My mom included. Funny.