MM or MC phono cartridges

[BobM]

Is your arm adjustable, meaning can you easily adjust and set arm height, vertical tracking angle and azimuth and anti-skate? If you cannot do all of these you may be better off with a MM cartridge. They are less fussy about set up. MC cartridges usually have fine line or Shibata style diamond tips that have to be precisely aligned. When they are correctly set up there is no going back though.

Also, does your phono stage have sufficient gain to drive a MC cartridge? MM cartridges usually range from 2-5mv of signal. MC's can be as low as .2mv so they require a phono stage capable of pushing 60-70db into your preamp.

Then, are your records clean? You will probably hear less pops and clicks with a MM cartridge, since they are less sensitive to this. Their needle doesn't track the groove walls as precisely as a MC.

So, yes, setting up and using a MC cartridge can be a real pain to get right. But when you do there is no going back to a MM. Best to have an audiophile friend who has experience and can help you with that setup and what to listen for and measure.

Here's a link to a setup guide: http://www.needledoctor.com/Phono-Cartridge-Setup

[LASERCD]

Gary:

I think you are getting a lot of good advice in this thread. You didn't mention which Rowland phono stage you are using. I'm assuming its the old Consummate.

One thing not discussed that can have a huge impact is proper cartridge loading. Cartridges are idiosyncratic. While its generally assumed that 100 ohms is the proper load for a MC cartridge its not really exact. Its possible the cartridges you heard at the dealer were physically set up properly but the dealer just used a broad brushstroke to set the impedance (and gain as well).

As a case in point: I currently am auditioning a Venice phono stage from Sonus Veritas (www.sonusveritas.com if anyone is interested). I'm using an Ortofon MC A90. There are a wide range of opinions as to the proper load for this cartridge - it really comes down to personal preference. I started off listening at 100 ohms. It sounded "OK". Not bad but I didn't get wood. I tried lowering it to 50 ohms and it created a very sluggish sound. I tried 150 ohms and everything fell into place. I was playing Ernest Ansermet and Orchestre de Suisse Romande "Scheherazade" (Super Analogue Disk pressing) and I almost shit myself. The sound staging, dynamics - it all came together. I started throwing on all kinds of music and I had continuous douche chills. Best thing is I know I've still got a lot more experimenting to do.

Using a MC is the right way to go. Just like looking at televisions at Best Buy I would probably discount what you hear at the dealer. Pick a good quality cartridge, get it installed properly and dial it in to your phono stage. You'll never go back to MM.

[enpdllp]

I'm using an Ortofon MC A90.

What is your turntable?

[LASERCD]

At the moment I'm using the TW Acustic Raven One with the TW Acustic 10.5 arm. I'm going to upgrade to the TW Acustic AC-3 soon.

[Staun]

Is your arm adjustable, meaning can you easily adjust and set arm height, vertical tracking angle and azimuth and anti-skate? If you cannot do all of these you may be better off with a MM cartridge. They are less fussy about set up. MC cartridges usually have fine line or Shibata style diamond tips that have to be precisely aligned. When they are correctly set up there is no going back though.

Also, does your phono stage have sufficient gain to drive a MC cartridge? MM cartridges usually range from 2-5mv of signal. MC's can be as low as .2mv so they require a phono stage capable of pushing 60-70db into your preamp.

Then, are your records clean? You will probably hear less pops and clicks with a MM cartridge, since they are less sensitive to this. Their needle doesn't track the groove walls as precisely as a MC.

So, yes, setting up and using a MC cartridge can be a real pain to get right. But when you do there is no going back to a MM. Best to have an audiophile friend who has experience and can help you with that setup and what to listen for and measure.

Here's a link to a setup guide: http://www.needledoctor.com/Phono-Cartridge-Setup

Interesting. As a second table, I have the Pro-Ject 2 Xperience with the Sumiko Blue Point 2 cart. This is a very quiet setup exposing and displaying less pops and clicks. However, I feel the sound is a bit flat for me. That midrange bump maybe? I have chosen for the moment not to use a preamp for the cart. Just another circuit in the loop and I feel that my Boulder mono blocks can supply enough power. But, it's not so much the power as it is the way the cart sounds. Would a preamp provide a better sound experience. Which is why I started this thread. I wanted to know what most people were hearing who have had experience using both types.

[LASERCD]

Staun:

How can you be running the table without a preamp? I'm confused.

[rottersclub]

You gots to follow the RIAA curve!

[simon moon]

Staun:

How can you be running the table without a preamp? I'm confused.

You gots to follow the RIAA curve!

Seriously!

Just think about the complete lack of bass response and bright highs without compensating for the RIAA recording curve on playback!



riaa-curve.jpg

[Staun]

Seriously!

Just think about the complete lack of bass response and bright highs without compensating for the RIAA recording curve on playback!



riaa-curve.jpg

Sorry guys, I meant a preamp for the mc cart. Tried a Cambridge 651a and hated it.

[simon moon]

I have the Pro-Ject 2 Xperience with the Sumiko Blue Point 2 cart. This is a very quiet setup exposing and displaying less pops and clicks. However, I feel the sound is a bit flat for me. That midrange bump maybe? I have chosen for the moment not to use a preamp for the cart. Just another circuit in the loop and I feel that my Boulder mono blocks can supply enough power. But, it's not so much the power as it is the way the cart sounds. Would a preamp provide a better sound experience. Which is why I started this thread. I wanted to know what most people were hearing who have had experience using both types.

The Blue Point 2 is a high output MC cartridge, so it shouldn't require an extra stage of amplification like low output MC cartridges.

It even likes the standard loading of 47K like MM cartridges, so most standard phono stages should be fine. My experience with Blue Points are they are over achievers. You probably shouldn't be expecting anything spectacular from it, though.

[Staun]

The Blue Point 2 is a high output MC cartridge, so it shouldn't require an extra stage of amplification like low output MC cartridges.

It even likes the standard loading of 47K like MM cartridges, so most standard phono stages should be fine. My experience with Blue Points are they are over achievers. You probably shouldn't be expecting anything spectacular from it, though.

Exactly. As I have also said, it sounds alittle to flat for my taste and should extend higher in FR range. I really want to stay with
an mc cart, one that does have that, "midrange bump", and extends further in the higher FR range. They are to my ears, very quiet and in that respect, superior to mm carts. Always welcome suggestions.

[LASERCD]

Staun:

Adjust the load. It will likely open up the top end.

[simon moon]

Staun:

Adjust the load. It will likely open up the top end.

Exactly.

MC cartridges are more susceptible to changed in load than MM.

If you want to get a real 'giant killer' of a low output MC cartridge, check into the Zu Audio 103. Zu takes the venerable old Denon 103, which at only $200 is a great deal itself, they hand select the best samples (Denon's QC is not great on this cartridge), then they remove the guts from the crappy resonant plastic body and they install them into an aluminum body.

The end results are a cartridge that rivals cartridges at 3 times the price. They make several different versions depending on how good the original sample specs were. The Grade 2 at $599 is the one that I'm familiar with, and it's a killer.

http://www.zuaudio.com/#turntable-cartridge.php

[Staun]

Exactly.

MC cartridges are more susceptible to changed in load than MM.

If you want to get a real 'giant killer' of a low output MC cartridge, check into the Zu Audio 103. Zu takes the venerable old Denon 103, which at only $200 is a great deal itself, they hand select the best samples (Denon's QC is not great on this cartridge), then they remove the guts from the crappy resonant plastic body and they install them into an aluminum body.

The end results are a cartridge that rivals cartridges at 3 times the price. They make several different versions depending on how good the original sample specs were. The Grade 2 at $599 is the one that I'm familiar with, and it's a killer.

http://www.zuaudio.com/#turntable-cartridge.php

This is interesting. The output is .5mV higher than the Blue Point, a wider bandwith especially on the top end which I fill is a drawback with the BP cart. 2.5 tracking force sounds abit heavy. Would this be a concern with MC carts? You feel that the low end is very good, how about the middle. I always seem to listen closely to drums. Especially the toms. For me, if I hear good bottom end on the toms, I usually don't have a big problem with the cart, mc or mm. It's just kind of a sound measurment for me. Overall, how does this cart sound? Does it maintain this "quietness", I've become fond of with an mc cart?

[BobM]

Check your Vertical Tracking Angle (VTA). Basically, with a MM cartridge, if you lower the back of the arm you should get more bass. If you raise the back of the arm you should get more treble extension. With a fine line stylus you have to think a bit differently.

The fine line or Shibata style stylus means there is a very fine razor edge that reads the groove walls. As for the groove walls and tones, bass tones have big waves, and trebley tinkely sounds have very fine tight small waves. With a fine line stylus the VTA is most important to align with the angle that those fine line tinkley sounds have been cut into the record. Typically 92 degrees, but you can check this by ear.

Find a record that has some nice triangle and ride cymbal on it. Listen to the leading edge transient of those instruments and raise or lower the back of the arm until you hear them crisp and clean, but not overly strident and distorted. If you get that right then everything else should lock in also. It will take a lot of trial and error.

Once that is locked in, then check your stylus pressure again and anti skate and adjust if necessary. Then it's all about cartridge loading to get the most top end transparency vs bass balance. Yeah, a pain, but well worth it once done correctly.

[Garyhead]

Greetings All:

After a weekend in Portland, OR I believe I have found my Cartridge.....and a dealer who actually sells / services turntable.
I purchased a Grado Statement Sonata 1. This whole process was VERY subjective. It was simple.....what did I hear? Not what did the salesman hear.....what were the specs......what was the price.....
What I also auditioned: Grado Reference Platinum 1, Sumiko Blackbird, Sumiko Bluepoint, Ortofon Rondo Blue, & a Lyra I don't remember the model.....All on VPI Turntables (same brand I own)

The Dealer? Fred's Sound of Music in Portland, OR. I will return (with my turntable, phono stage, Pre-amp & Power supplies) in a few weeks for the set-up. Fee is a flat rate $90.00 for up to three hours. Specs. Checked for the Jeff Roland Consumate electronics and ok for this type of cartridge.
Thank you ALL for your input! It was all helpful / thoughtful and helped me to keep all the hype in perspective. I'm sure the other cartridges are all fine products but the one I selected seemed to fit well into My puzzle that is my stereo. If you are still interested, I can post a review after the break-in period. By the way.....their prices were the same as the online sites previously posted.....and no sales tax on Oregon!

[Modry Effekt]

I play vinyl daily,but i´m not sure which one i have - rock'roll

[Zeuhlmate]

Grado Sonata - good choice. Same one I have.