I Love genre benders like Rundgren, why not Steven Wilson?

**gpeccary** · 06-12-2017

In light of Wilson's latest releases of singles from his upcoming album, I feel like I'm off the band wagon I've been firmly seated upon for over 20 years. I've only missed one tour since Stupid Dream. HCE I saw 3 times. But this new direction...I'm not feeling at all.

I know Wilson is a huge pop fan, he's made no secret of that fact. He's admittedly been working hard on song construction since Stupid Dream. I felt after hearing and seeing the HCE tour, it was his solo break out album and the chances of seeing him in smaller venues was very likely to be a thing of the past, he had broken through to a new wider audience, and I thought it was going to be different for him after that. And for me. His new tour is apparently selling out and the album isn't out yet.

Yet with this new work, it's not on my auto buy list and I've no interest in seeing the tour, though I may change my tune if Ninet is on it! I became frustrated with his lineup changes in North America and have become less excited about seeing him as a result.

All that being said, I started to think about other musicians who's next album I eagerly look forward to knowing it's going to be a surprise, a new direction, a new sound, a new band. Maybe a completely different genre like Joe Jacksons Sympnony #1, anything by Ryuichi Sakamoto, Eno, Rundgrens With A Twist, Zappas, well almost anything. Among this group there are hundreds and hundreds of additional examples.

I'm wondering why I'm so intolerant of Wilsons new direction? Sakamoto has always bounced around with musical genres, all sorts of musicians and styles. I buy his work expecting it to be different! I welcome the challenge even though it may not be the style I listen to or be all that interested in, his Heartbeat album with Deee Lite for example. He did it, I listen to it openly, and accept it differently.

Why not with this one of Wilsons?

I made a snarky comment that maybe he's trying to win a spot as opener on Adele's next tour. Good on him if he does! I'm not begrudging him success, if I were wish it upon anyone it would be him.
I'm wondering what others here think. It seems like he's lost some of us and retained and/or gained others.

Any thoughts??

**miamiscot** · 06-12-2017

i will reserve judgement until I hear the new album in its entirety. The songs released thus far sound pretty solid to me.

**Kcrimso** · 06-12-2017

I have nothing against for Wilson to change the direction but these three new songs sadly are just quite crappy or mediocre at best.

**moecurlythanu** · 06-12-2017

I read the thread title as "gender bender."

Anyway, I got off the bus after In Absentia, and don't feel like I've missed anything, so I'll read the reviews, but...

**Facelift** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by moecurlythanu

I read the thread title as "gender bending."

Anyway, I got off the bus after In Absentia, and don't feel like I've missed anything, so I'll read the reviews, but...

I'm more or less with you, but I did think that HCE distinguished itself from the others. You might want to give it a shot.

**Scrotum Scissor** · 06-12-2017

It isn't as if "pure pop" is anything new to Willie's roster. Lots of it - in indie format, more or less - on PT's releases. And especially the early ones.

His attempts at going "Prince-like" transcendent, however, strike me as mildly embarrassing. He's no Eno, heck not even anywhere near a Sylvian. I'm sure he's a very nice person (and I still find loads of charm in his 90s releases with PT, I.E.M. and BC), but darnit - there's a LOT of interesting music being made out there these days.

**jamesmanzi** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by gpeccary

I'm wondering why I'm so intolerant of Wilsons new direction?

Why are you asking us? Honestly, you've made a conscious decision to demand specific music from Wilson while you're open to other musicians surprising you with new and different approaches...

Why have you made that decision? Of Wilson, of all people. This isn't new. He's been giving us 4 minute pop songs with Aviv and Blackfield for the last 15 years, and with Bowness and No-Man for over 25.

Could it be that, at heart, you're just another cranky Porcupine Tree fan who wants music that sounds like Porcupine Tree - or an extension of it - from Wilson, and nothing else? I'm just guessing, I don't know you.

**jamesmanzi** · 06-12-2017

Just hearing Song of I for the first time. You guys are fucking killing me with this "pop" shit.

This isn't pop by any standards.

I get the feeling sometimes that "Doesn't sound like it was derived from one section or another of Supper's Ready or Close to the Edge" = "Pop" to some of you.

**Scrotum Scissor** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by jamesmanzi

This isn't pop by any standards.

No, perhaps not within your personal frame of reference. But then again to apply "Supper's Ready" or "Close to the Edge" as some sort of imagined extreme by which to measure, you give positions away. Experimental rock music moved beyond that more than 40 years ago.

"Song of I" is pop music by many standards. Which isn't bad in itself, as long as the tune holds up - which this one doesn't.

**jamesmanzi** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor

"Song of I" is pop music by many standards.

Yes, I allowed for that. By the standard of "Not Prog" = "Pop" it is most certainly pop.

**JKL2000** · 06-12-2017

I don't at all think of Wilson as a "genre Bender" like Rundgren. I think of him as much less original and talented than Rundgren, even if I enjoy some of his music.

**Scrotum Scissor** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by jamesmanzi

Yes, I allowed for that. By the standard of "Not Prog" = "Pop" it is most certainly pop.

But then again, neither is very much of what's usually discussed of current music in here progressive rock - if that's what "prog" is supposed to abbreviate. Thus the apparent breach between (contemporary) "Prog"/"Not Prog" implies null and void to begin with.

As for that breach itself, I'm sure you're right; there are indeed folks who'd judge most things either liteweight or unnecessarily difficult if moving respectively to the right or the left of "Supper's Edge".

**Sean** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by JKL2000

I don't at all think of Wilson as a "genre Bender" like Rundgren. I think of him as much less original and talented than Rundgren, even if I enjoy some of his music.

This^^^

**jamesmanzi** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by Sean

This^^^

Really? And I'm not asking to be combative, but you'd lump the creative force behind Bass Communion, IEM, No-Man, Blackfield, and Porcupine Tree under one genre? What genre is that?

**jamesmanzi** · 06-12-2017

* with an understanding of course that he is not the entire creative force behind Blackfield and No-Man.

**Progmatic** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by jamesmanzi

Just hearing Song of I for the first time. You guys are fucking killing me with this "pop" shit.

This isn't pop by any standards.

I get the feeling sometimes that "Doesn't sound like it was derived from one section or another of Supper's Ready or Close to the Edge" = "Pop" to some of you.

I agree with you. It is always a point of reference that determines whether music belongs to a particular genre. Although Wilson's music is more accessible than other contemporary progressive music, IMHO it does not fit or have a feel of pop's formats.
Just because it thematically and musically relates to the established styles it does not make it less progressive than let say music of 1970's progressive music giants.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**gpeccary** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by jamesmanzi

Why are you asking us? Honestly, you've made a conscious decision to demand specific music from Wilson while you're open to other musicians surprising you with new and different approaches...

Why have you made that decision? Of Wilson, of all people. This isn't new. He's been giving us 4 minute pop songs with Aviv and Blackfield for the last 15 years, and with Bowness and No-Man for over 25.

Could it be that, at heart, you're just another cranky Porcupine Tree fan who wants music that sounds like Porcupine Tree - or an extension of it - from Wilson, and nothing else? I'm just guessing, I don't know you.

I'm opening a discussion, thats why I'm asking because the comments in another thread indicate I'm not the only one dissatisfied. And it just got me thinking....and to answer the PT question, Fair question, but no. I'm not one of the legions that wants PT back. Maybe its finished, and maybe its not. Up to him and I'm not waiting.

**Plasmatopia** · 06-12-2017

Has the new album leaked or something?

**jamesmanzi** · 06-12-2017

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that you wanted Porcupine Tree back; that's what I meant by "an extension of it." A pretty clear line can be drawn from Porcupine Tree thru a lot of Wilson's solo work. And it sounds like you have a problem with him deviating from that line.

Honestly, as I've alluded to above I think, I find the subject weird to begin with because this isn't new for Wilson. If you don't dig Blackfield and No-Man, then yeah, this stuff isn't going to be to your liking. If you're down with those bands, then I have no idea why you wouldn't like this stuff, unless you simply don't like these specific songs - and that's perfectly reasonable.

**jamesmanzi** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by Plasmatopia

Has the new album leaked or something?

He's dropped three songs so far, officially. They are covers of Justin Bieber songs mostly.

**Plasmatopia** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by jamesmanzi

He's dropped three songs so far, officially. They are covers of Justin Bieber songs mostly.

My point was mostly to the OP: how can we judge an album not yet released? Did I accidentally open a Yes thread?

**jamesmanzi** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by Plasmatopia

My point was mostly to the OP: how can we judge an album not yet released? Did I accidentally open a Yes thread?

I know. My point was why are we using the term applied to Justin Bieber's music to describe this stuff.

**gpeccary** · 06-12-2017

Originally Posted by Plasmatopia

My point was mostly to the OP: how can we judge an album not yet released? Did I accidentally open a Yes thread?

We cant obviously, and I'm not in fact. I'm referring to the direction the three new pieces seem to be taking. This isn't a dissertation on an album I haven't heard, rather a question about the direction and why I'm not on board as yet.