Vulture article on Prog

[ewiser]

http://www.vulture.com/2017/05/david...rock-book.html


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[Gizmotron]

http://www.vulture.com/2017/05/david...rock-book.html


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It sounds like an interesting book. Thanks for the link!

I especially liked his last statement:

"Progressive rock is complicated music, and maybe too ambitious for its own good, but, and this is something that often gets lost, the guys doing it were having a lot of fun."

[JKL2000]

I wish it was paperback instead of hardcover. Hate reading hardcover books.

[Sputnik]

Wow, just read the article and immediately added the book to my Amazon wishlist! Looks awesome, thanks so much for the link!

Bill

[Baribrotzer]

David Weigel (the author) does make an odd mistake in the interview: John Wetton did not write lyrics for King Crimson, although he probably came up with many of the vocal melodies.

[Kai]

David Weigel (the author) does make an odd mistake in the interview: John Wetton did not write lyrics for King Crimson, although he probably came up with many of the vocal melodies.

To be fair, he did at least write "One More Red Nightmare" and the original lyric for "Starless", even if the latter was largely rewritten by Palmer-James. Though that's probably not what the author meant.

[Scrotum Scissor]

- [...] the music was defined by invention. I hear more newness in progressive rock than I do in anything else.

Shit, this surely says a lot about why certain alleged "progressive" artists today are just - or at least ALMOST - as good as those big ones were back in '73. I mean, most of these new ones who are a bit "big" also come across as very, very, very inventive. And stuff.

Of course, let's not imagine anyone able to "invent" beyond the point that marks our own understanding of things.

[Baribrotzer]

It would be interesting to see what Weigel has to say about current prog, if he discusses it at all. He doesn't mention it in the interview, and his exposure to the music is, of necessity, that of discovering it long after the fact. It's rather like one of us discovering the glories of Fifties jazz, of Mingus, Monk, Miles, Stan Kenton, etc. as an adult - it's great music, but a music of its time, a time before ours. And it's a music for which the original impulse no longer exists, and for which Wynton and those others who try to re-create it as it was have missed one of the most important points.

EDIT: He does mention Steven Wilson, who is an excellent craftsman, but a guy mining the past: Wilson's version of "prog" is, in artistic terms, less like what Crimson or Yes did in 1970 than the work of Leon Russell or Delaney+Bonnie in the same period - a re-creation of R&B and California pop that was already old music (as reckoned at the time), but done with great energy and skill.

[Scrotum Scissor]

He does mention Steven Wilson, who is an excellent craftsman, but a guy mining the past: Wilson's version of "prog" is, in artistic terms, less like what Crimson or Yes did in 1970 than the work of Leon Russell or Delaney+Bonnie in the same period - a re-creation of R&B and California pop that was already old music (as reckoned at the time), but done with great energy and skill.

Interesting analogy, John - again.

But to be honest, if Weigel's perception of "prog" identifies invention as denominating facet, there's preciously little to commend the current "big" names alluding to the virtues of the 70s. They are not out to invent, and possibly wouldn't even know where to start if they had any motivation in them. It's a sad and all the less beautiful world.

[Baribrotzer]

Although there's another issue: If you don't know about the further reaches of the music - and related genres, like some facets of current jazz and of modern classical music - then you don't know about people trying to keep that original impulse alive. And you may not realize the difference between re-creating the sound, as Steven Wilson does, and and trying to maintain the spirit of innovation, as Thinking Plague and a number of others do.

[Scrotum Scissor]

If you don't know about the further reaches of the music - and related genres, like some facets of current jazz and of modern classical music - then you don't know about people trying to keep that original impulse alive. And you may not realize the difference between re-creating the sound, as Steven Wilson does, and and trying to maintain the spirit of innovation, as Thinking Plague and a number of others do.

Extremely valid points which would appear rather obvious so some, but escape most - seeing as the majority of the music's own audience apparently falls into that exact category which you so eloquently just described.

Sitting down donning a product of yet another "new" name checked as "prog" and awaiting the mandatory reference to bygone statements - "[...] where's Genesis/APP/Magma/Styx/Area [etc.] - this is supposedly the expected routine. If such reference is avoided altogether, then somehow the formal achievements of the aural matter itself tends to elude the wake. One could only wish it wasn't quite as banale, but this remains the deal.

Of course, today you've got de-facto progressive ensembles neither resembling or referencing the bygone (like Zs or Tyondai Braxton), but also some who do so albeit indirectly (such as Thinking Plague or, in a different manner altogether, Bubblemath). It's still just as unlikely how these would ever appear as scale of continuation with the virtues inherent in the notion of "prog".

[flowerking]

Interesting interview but Weigel blew some opportunities here. First, he failed to mention that prog is alive and well and in some ways thriving via Internet-based business. And as for brilliant lyricists, he should have mentioned Peter Hamill and maybe Ian Anderson. I would also argue that Led Zep, while not prog, did have some prog ideas now and then. Saying they were mostly uninventive is kind of naive. Maybe he's never listened to the Rain Song. And then his comparison of prog musicians and punk musicians couldn't be more misguided though. I don't think prog musicians were rebelling against society or the music industry like punk musicians, they were just rebelling against being forced into a genre (if they were rebelling at all).

[Scrotum Scissor]

he failed to mention that prog is alive and well and in some ways thriving via Internet-based business. And as for brilliant lyricists, he should have mentioned Peter Hamill and maybe Ian Anderson. [...] And then his comparison of prog musicians and punk musicians couldn't be more misguided though. I don't think prog musicians were rebelling against society or the music industry like punk musicians, they were just rebelling against being forced into a genre (if they were rebelling at all).

First, "prog" is absolutely not "alive and well" by neither the musical nor cultural criteria Weigel upholds; John and myself are alreaady discussing this - Weigel ascerts that "prog" is defined by inventiveness, which ca. 97,3% of today's so-called "prog" does NOT live up to and wouldn't live up to even if it tried.

Second, some might not agree that Hammill and Anderson were great lyricists (although I personally would for sure).

Third, numerous international "prog" artists WERE actually rebellious on a larger scale. The fact that the 'big six/five/seven' weren't doesn't mean much.

[moecurlythanu]

Third, numerous international "prog" artists WERE actually rebellious on a larger scale. The fact that the 'big six/five/seven' weren't doesn't mean much.

And even there, I can't help but recall the photo of Genesis in their practice room with a large CND rally poster on the wall. Not to mention a strong anti-war stance by many of these artists with Vietnam as the prime mover for it.

Not directing this specifically at flowerking, but I notice a tendency for the modern Progfan to see their favorite artists through their own eyes. To impute their values and tendencies retroactively to those artists. "I'm a generally becalmed supporter of the establishment, not making waves, not doing drugs. My favorite bands in the early 70s must have been doing likewise." Only it's nothing like that conscious an assessment. More of a tacit assumption. And if said Progfan is young enough to not remember the social milieu of the early 70s, that becomes all the easier.

Also, one must always bear in mind that where Prog-Rock started is not where it ended up.

[mogrooves]

David Marchese said:

It’s hard to argue that [P]rog was political...

Try harder, Dave.

[JJ88]

And even there, I can't help but recall the photo of Genesis in their practice room with a large CND rally poster on the wall. Not to mention a strong anti-war stance by many of these artists with Vietnam as the prime mover for it.

Not directing this specifically at flowerking, but I notice a tendency for the modern Progfan to see their favorite artists through their own eyes. To impute their values and tendencies retroactively to those artists. "I'm a generally becalmed supporter of the establishment, not making waves, not doing drugs. My favorite bands in the early 70s must have been doing likewise."

Agreed. It's a narrative that suits some prog fans on here- not to put it any stronger than that.

Gabriel has been very politically active and some on here also didn't like Hackett getting political in recent interviews. Emerson's US flag-burning antics at the Royal Albert Hall caused uproar. Just in the UK alone, on another thread recently we mentioned the likes of Henry Cow, Robert Wyatt, the Ladbroke Grove scene of Hawkwind, Pink Fairies, Edgar Broughton Band etc.

[flowerking]

And even there, I can't help but recall the photo of Genesis in their practice room with a large CND rally poster on the wall. Not to mention a strong anti-war stance by many of these artists with Vietnam as the prime mover for it.

I have no idea how taking an anti-war stance is rebelling against society. In fact, peaceful protesting is supported by most western societies. Punk rockers often seemed to be complete anarchists and nihilists and I don't see prog artists taking either of those stances. My apologies if I am misrepresenting the punk movement though, I never followed it.

[moecurlythanu]

I have no idea how taking an anti-war stance is rebelling against society. In fact, peaceful protesting is supported by most western societies.

They were opposing the policies of the then establishment as expressed through the government. It was as rebellious as you could get. Remember Kent St?

[JJ88]

Punk rockers often seemed to be complete anarchists and nihilists and I don't see prog artists taking either of those stances.

Hawkwind and Gong...and tangentially related, The Pink Fairies, The Deviants and The Edgar Broughton Band.

[regenerativemusic]

They were opposing the policies of the then establishment as expressed through the government. It was as rebellious as you could get. Remember Kent St?

I've seen Michener's book on Kent State and I believe the protesters were destroying parts of the town or the college. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

[yamishogun]

Gabriel has been very politically active

I thought the author meant the songs aren't that political. Out of the 100 songs wrote, I count only three that are political.

[Scrotum Scissor]

The progressive rock scenes in Italy, France and West-Germany were decidedly political in character, and this even includes some of the truly *big* names and sellers there. Many Scandinavian/Nordic artists were also politically charged. Progressive rock in Eastern Europe and the South Americas were mainly politically charged, seeing how their social and cultural surroundings prompted this to be the case given the authoritarian nature of government and society. Progressive rock in Spain was political in the sense that rock music was hardly even allowed to any remarkable extent before the demise of the Franco regime following the dictator's death, three of the best-known Portuguese progressive bands (Banda do Casaco, Petrus Castrus, Tantra) even made political concept albums. (Progressive) rock in Greece during the military junta regime 1967-74: utterly political, even many lyrics of a heavy metal group like Socrates and the pop band Poll. The burgeoning progressive scene in Québec: at times profoundly political and even separatist, this including major acts like Harmonium and Seguin.

Rock or other musics, like art in general, "transcends" politics as little as it "transcends" human emotion, materialism and economics.

[moecurlythanu]

I've seen Michener's book on Kent State and I believe the protesters were destroying parts of the town or the college. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the Kent St shootings, but...overwhelmingly, most anti-Vietnam War demonstrations were peaceful. At a certain point, there were groups who felt they needed to up the ante and were agitating for occupation of ROTC buildings, and/or Student Unions, Administration buildings. I don't know if anything like that ever took place at Kent St, however the students who were shot at Kent iirc, were marching toward the National Guard across an open grass field with sidewalks. At least one of the victims wasn't even a protester, but was just a student on the way to class. That none of the principals were ever prosecuted for their crimes was obscene, however the majority in the US at the time was solidly behind the government and felt that those dirty hippies got what they had coming to them, despite the fact that they were unarmed, nonviolent, and exercising a constitutionally protected right.

[yoyiceu]

I'm reminded of something once written by Dave Stewart (Egg, Hatfield and the North, etc.) in one of many articles he used to write about music. His theory went against the accepted wisdom that punk came out spontaneously as a breath of fresh air when prog had become too pompous and stale. His theory: some record companias at the time pushed for 'punk' rock as a kind of simple music that anybody could make as an easier way of controlling bands and musicians, because talent and ability became secondary. I'm paraphrasing, yes, and maybe over simplifying, but I think that was his argument: that punk was a return to promoting bands by their image and attitude, more than their musical ability or ambition. I think I read those articles on the old Ptolemaic Terrascope magazine.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I'm reminded of something once written by Dave Stewart (Egg, Hatfield and the North, etc.) in one of many articles he used to write about music. His theory went against the accepted wisdom that punk came out spontaneously as a breath of fresh air when prog had become too pompous and stale. His theory: some record companies at the time pushed for 'punk' rock as a kind of simple music that anybody could make as an easier way of controlling bands and musicians, because talent and ability became secondary. [...] I think I read those articles on the old Ptolemaic Terrascope magazine.

As an ardent reader of PT back in the day, I seem to remember that article as well. But I think Stewart's version suffers a bit from a jump-to-conclusion logic, as this given narrative has somehow been abbreviated into 'Punk' understood as primarily a corporate makeover from the beginning - which it most definitely wasn't. Just like the initial traces of UK punk rock emanated from the DIY communal anarchist underground situated in Notting Hill/Ladbroke Grove and goes way back to 1966 (with the formation of Mick Farren's White Panthers and the constitution of foras like The International Times), the ends of punk and the subcultural phenomenon which also spawned early progressive rock (through The Deviants, Hawkwind, Pink Fairies, Edgar Broughton Band, Quintessence, Second Hand et al.) met again during the "free scene" of the early-to-mid 80s centered around the annual Stonehenge festival and such.

Of course, this was a cultural dynamic as much as a strictly musical one. But the rendition that "punk" at large was an easier merchandise to sell is somewhat dubious in that it ascerts how a majority of buyers were equally understanding of progressive rock as purported "thinking man's pop music" in the first place, which appears highly doubtful. Obviously, from this axiom ensued the notion of "prog" as a case of Emperor's New Clothes which were suddenly revealed and discarded and replaced by a tool of expression resting not on thinking but on hitting. The tale itself is utterly banale, but its origins remain highly interesting if one allows oneself to ask how and by whom it came about - not least seeing it in light of a formal historical analysis; by the outbreak of punk as a market phenomenon (ultimo 1977-78), the social state which apparently had fuelled it (grand spread adolescent political/ideological radicalism particularly radiant in France, Italy and West-Germany but also in the UK, petroleum crisis, general economic recension and collapse of loads in the "lower" sectors of labour) was itself receding. Punk rock was certainly a louder language, yes - but not necessarily less "intelligent". On the other hand, outright progressive artists like Stormy Six and Area in Italy, both bands vehemently Marxist, were as militant and socially cutting-edge as any punk band - yet far more intricate in approach than your average "dinosaur" act.