Elton John Laments the loss of real music talent

[GuitarGeek]

It is amazing how many of today's pop songs are following the exact same formula. I can literally hum along with them the first time I hear them.

I'm not trying to sound like our parents did back in the day when they called rock "noise." I try to be open-minded. But, there is so much following and no real trailblazing that I hear. Well, very little.

I'm the same way. I believe it was Bill Cosby who once said time makes liars out of all of us (ie when we're teenagers, we say "I'll never be like my parents", but then 20-30 years later, you find yourself saying the same stuff, even if you're not a parent).

The thing I've been trying to figure out is, I'm sure I keep hearing the same drum machine pattern, every time I hear one of those idiots with the PA system strength car stereos, or even someone on the bus who has their media player turned up way too loud (kid, do yourself a later and look up the word "tinnitus", you're going to be hearing a lot about it 20 years from now, when you can't figure out why the ringing sound never goes away and why everyone you talk seems to be mumbling). I can't figure out if everyone's literally listening to the same song could be (I'm pretty sure I once heard three cars drive past me while I was waiting for the bus one day, and all seemed to be listening to the same radio station), or if record producers are just too damn lazy to break out the owner's manual and learn how to program a new rhythm in the TR-808 (or more likely, the TR-808 style VST on their laptop).

And I'm sorry, I don't care what you say about "This is the hit making formula" or whatever, it's still laziness.

I remember reading an interview with Alan Douglas, the guy who controlled the Hendrix archives up until Jimi's dad won his lawsuit in the mid 90's. He was asked if he felt he made any mistakes, and he mentioned a couple of the mid 70's records where they overdubbed studio musicians. He excluded Crash Landing from that grouping, saying "It went platinum", as if to suggest that the fact that he conned a million people into buying it somehow made it "good" or better than Midnight Lightning or Nine To The Universe (the ones that he felt were "mistakes"). I'll stick with Axis: Bold As Love and Electric Ladyland, thank you very much.

[Zonefish]

.but Debbie Gibson wrote and produced his albums. I remember it being said that she was the youngest performer to sing, write, and produce a number hit on Billboard's Top 100 chart.

Point taken...so let's use New Kids on the Block or Tiffany instead as examples of 1980s commoditized, pre-fabricated music. But the idea was simply to show that although the practice is as old as the music industry itself, over the past decade or so, it has become the norm to churn out forgettable, disposable product. At least in terms of mainstream pop music.

[Scott Bails]

I just wish that today's pop singers could sing in-key. I applaud them for not lip-syncing during awards show performances (my only exposure to many of them), but so many of them flat-out can't sing.

[GuitarGeek]

Point taken...so let's use New Kids on the Block or Tiffany instead as examples of 1980s commoditized, pre-fabricated music. But the idea was simply to show that although the practice is as old as the music industry itself, over the past decade or so, it has become the norm to churn out forgettable, disposable product. At least in terms of mainstream pop music.

Well, I'd argue it's been at least a couple decades, but yeah, there just aren't that many good pop records around these days. And if you thought the 80's production, with the over reliance on the worst sounds the DX-7 could make (eg "Seinfeld" bass and "Rhodes" electric piano patches), sampled horn sections, digital drums (whether played by a human or a microchip), etc in the late 80's was obnoxious, today's production is even worse, with Autotuned vocals, epileptic drum machine patterns, and no hooks.

The last really good pop song that I can think of that I've heard is I'll Be The One by BackStreet Boys, and that was, what? 1999? Something like that?

And speaking of Tiffany: say what you want about Debbie Gibson, but at least she never desecrated a Lennon/McCartney composition (though I believe she did tackle Elton's Crocodile Rock).

I just wish that today's pop singers could sing in-key. I applaud them for not lip-syncing during awards show performances (my only exposure to many of them), but so many of them flat-out can't sing.

I think if they had their way, they'd lip sync. I think live performances on awards shows kind of became mandatory after the Milli Vanilli debacle. I was watching a documentary thing the BBC produced when they finally took Top Of The Pops off the air, and when they got to the late 80's, they mention Milli Vanilli and the subsequent decision by the TOTP production team to make live performances mandatory. They then cut to some idiot record producer, one of the guys from Stock/Atkein/Waterman talking about how it was unfair because "You can't get a good live performance out of our artists, not because they can't sing, but because you don't have the time to get the kind of performance we get out of them in the studio" (by which I believe he means, "we can edit hundreds of takes together so it sounds like they sang the song in one, perfect take"), then I think Kylie Minogue chimed it about how much "hard work" it became appearing on Top Of The Pops, because she had to actually learn how to sing the songs live, while doing all this stupid choreography, etc.

[Gizmotron]

Well, I'd argue it's been at least a couple decades, but yeah, there just aren't that many good pop records around these days. And if you thought the 80's production, with the over reliance on the worst sounds the DX-7 could make (eg "Seinfeld" bass and "Rhodes" electric piano patches), sampled horn sections, digital drums (whether played by a human or a microchip), etc in the late 80's was obnoxious, today's production is even worse, with Autotuned vocals, epileptic drum machine patterns, and no hooks.

The last really good pop song that I can think of that I've heard is I'll Be The One by BackStreet Boys, and that was, what? 1999? Something like that?

And speaking of Tiffany: say what you want about Debbie Gibson, but at least she never desecrated a Lennon/McCartney composition (though I believe she did tackle Elton's Crocodile Rock).



I think if they had their way, they'd lip sync. I think live performances on awards shows kind of became mandatory after the Milli Vanilli debacle. I was watching a documentary thing the BBC produced when they finally took Top Of The Pops off the air, and when they got to the late 80's, they mention Milli Vanilli and the subsequent decision by the TOTP production team to make live performances mandatory. They then cut to some idiot record producer, one of the guys from Stock/Atkein/Waterman talking about how it was unfair because "You can't get a good live performance out of our artists, not because they can't sing, but because you don't have the time to get the kind of performance we get out of them in the studio" (by which I believe he means, "we can edit hundreds of takes together so it sounds like they sang the song in one, perfect take"), then I think Kylie Minogue chimed it about how much "hard work" it became appearing on Top Of The Pops, because she had to actually learn how to sing the songs live, while doing all this stupid choreography, etc.

Hey, slag off anyone you want but leave my DX-7 out of it!

[ronmac]

I remember reading an interview with Alan Douglas, the guy who controlled the Hendrix archives up until Jimi's dad won his lawsuit in the mid 90's. He was asked if he felt he made any mistakes, and he mentioned a couple of the mid 70's records where they overdubbed studio musicians. He excluded Crash Landing from that grouping, saying "It went platinum", as if to suggest that the fact that he conned a million people into buying it somehow made it "good" or better than Midnight Lightning or Nine To The Universe (the ones that he felt were "mistakes"). I'll stick with Axis: Bold As Love and Electric Ladyland, thank you very much.

Alan Douglas was a total shit stain.

I just wish that today's pop singers could sing in-key. I applaud them for not lip-syncing during awards show performances (my only exposure to many of them), but so many of them flat-out can't sing.

Talent is secondary these days. The look is what's important. It's all about packaging.

[Zonefish]

Talent is secondary these days. The look is what's important. It's all about packaging.

Based on today's standards, Neil Young would still be busking for loonies in Toronto.

[jake]

Based on today's standards, Neil Young would still be busking for loonies in Toronto.

......or Glasgow

[Gruno]

40 years on, we are still discussing Elton's music. In 30-40 years, will there be the same reverence for Beyonce or Bruno Mars? Maybe as nostalgia, but the music (for the most part) seems disposable--like the stuff Shaun Cassidy or Debbie Gibson used to make (okay perform---as they were not the driving creative force behind their own "art.")

You might want to choose a different example other than Debbie Gibson, as she writes her own material.

[GuitarGeek]

You might want to choose a different example other than Debbie Gibson, as she writes her own material.

Yes, we've already established that fact, thank you. You're not the only repository of useless knowledge around here.

[yamishogun]

but so many of them flat-out can't sing.

Hey, no need to drag Steve Howe into this!

[yamishogun]

or even someone on the bus who has their media player turned up way too loud (kid, do yourself a later and look up the word "tinnitus", you're going to be hearing a lot about it 20 years from now, when you can't figure out why the ringing sound never goes away and why everyone you talk seems to be mumbling).

Tinnitus not curable by the year 2037? Surely, you jest...

[GuitarGeek]

Tinnitus not curable by the year 2037? Surely, you jest...

No, I do not jest! And don't call me Shirley!

[3RDegree_Robert]

To be clear, Elton promotes young, up-and-coming artists more than most other big rock stars ever have- he's not a typically reactionary 'it all sounds the same now' type at all.

Didn't Elton have something to do with the early career of the singer from Moth Vellum, Ryan Downe?

[JJ88]

Not my bag at all but he was (still is, maybe) involved with Ed Sheeran as well. Whenever I hear him interviewed, he always talks about new albums by younger artists he's listening to.

[peterpyser]

Not my bag at all but he was (still is, maybe) involved with Ed Sheeran as well. Whenever I hear him interviewed, he always talks about new albums by younger artists he's listening to.

No, he doesn't listen to that stuff. He only pretends to, just to be cool.

[happytheman]

It is amazing how many of today's pop songs are following the exact same formula. I can literally hum along with them the first time I hear them.

I'm not trying to sound like our parents did back in the day when they called rock "noise." I try to be open-minded. But, there is so much following and no real trailblazing that I hear. Well, very little.

Read Clive Davis' Soundtrack of my Life or David Fosters' Hitman.. real eye opener for me as to "what went wrong with the music business"...

[JJ88]

No, he doesn't listen to that stuff. He only pretends to, just to be cool.

You know this how? Because when I saw him doing some live show for the BBC a while back, he followed it with an interview and he basically reviewed the new Arctic Monkeys album there and then. He credits Ryan Adams' work for him moving back to a piano-driven, analogue production sound.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

I think one thing that's being left out here is the politics. This has happened again and again:

A new musical "sound" comes along that is linked with rebellion: various forms of jazz, rock'n'roll, soul/r'n'b, metal, hiphop, and, yes, disco. It makes a bit of money.

In come the money people who iron it out flat, bring in new acts, and tame it to "sexy" macho strutting and "sexy" female vamping. I can't speak well about jazz, I haven't studied the individual movements in enough detail. But rock'n'roll started as "juvenile delinquent" music, and got Elvissed. Popular metal went from potentially dangerous bands like Sabbath and (yes, I'll admit it) Zep to the hair metal balladeers of the '80s. Disco started as "deviant" music - it was an underground gay thing - and got Rod Stewarted and Donna Summered. (Note that I'm talking about two very talented performers there, but folks like them made disco "safe" for the money people.) Punk, hiphop, funk, r'n'b, they all follow the same trajectory.

Oh, and? The dangerous stuff was still out there. But it gets buried under the commercial shite. The dangerous acts get tamed or shoved under the carpet.

Interestingly, it didn't quite happen to prog. Partially because prog was never really "dangerous" to the status quo, partially because prog was mostly not very political (how political is a seasoned witch?). They tried to do it with some of the biggest selling prog bands - I mean EL&P, who the suits tried to tame-and-sexualize with Love Beach; or Genesis, where they briefly tried to make Phil Collins look sexy - but it never took, because the people who respond to the tamed-and-sexualized music don't have the patience for what those bands were doing.

Let's take a closer look at one subgenre, punk, which has its real roots in the Velvets and the Stooges and MC5 and their ilk, and in another direction in the Who and the Stones and their ilk... British punk had the Clash and Siouxsie and a bunch of other acts, American punk had Ramones and X and Dead Kennedies, but who made headlines? The Punk Monkees, the Sex Pistols, a manufactured band who even covered a Monkees song live. Their cod nihilism and rebellion was perfect for selling and image and records, while the genuinely dangerous acts were kept quiet. (Yes, the Clash eventually made it semi-big, but their hits were generally relatively safe songs like "London Calling" and "Rock the Casbah" and ferghodsake "Train in Vain.")

Follow the money, and follow the politics. They coonjine.

[infandous]

Am I the only one who reads Elton's comments as being strictly about the 80's? Because that's how it reads to me.

That said, this is an interesting discussion and I find a lot I agree with here.

It should probably also be mentioned that those 60's California bands, like The Byrds (as one example), were also "manufactured" bands who had studio musicians playing their albums since most of them couldn't play instruments initially. There were a surprising number of these, including the Beach Boys. Of course, both the Beach Boys and The Byrds had one person that could actually play an instrument and wrote the songs, and in both cases the members did eventually learn to play their instruments, but this was actually the norm in the southern California music scene in the early to mid-60's.

As to Elton, I never much cared for his stuff but I can't deny he was a talented musician and performer. Just never did much of anything for me personally.

[Yodelgoat]

I think one thing that's being left out here is the politics. This has happened again and again:

A new musical "sound" comes along that is linked with rebellion: various forms of jazz, rock'n'roll, soul/r'n'b, metal, hiphop, and, yes, disco. It makes a bit of money....

Follow the money, and follow the politics. They coonjine.

Wow, this is a great discourse... Money changes everything.

[moecurlythanu]

Partially because prog was never really "dangerous" to the status quo, partially because prog was mostly not very political (how political is a seasoned witch?)

That depends on whether you season her with salt, or with crushed red pepper.

[Jerjo]

I think one thing that's being left out here is the politics. This has happened again and again:

A new musical "sound" comes along that is linked with rebellion: various forms of jazz, rock'n'roll, soul/r'n'b, metal, hiphop, and, yes, disco. It makes a bit of money.

In come the money people who iron it out flat, bring in new acts, and tame it to "sexy" macho strutting and "sexy" female vamping. I can't speak well about jazz, I haven't studied the individual movements in enough detail. But rock'n'roll started as "juvenile delinquent" music, and got Elvissed. Popular metal went from potentially dangerous bands like Sabbath and (yes, I'll admit it) Zep to the hair metal balladeers of the '80s. Disco started as "deviant" music - it was an underground gay thing - and got Rod Stewarted and Donna Summered. (Note that I'm talking about two very talented performers there, but folks like them made disco "safe" for the money people.) Punk, hiphop, funk, r'n'b, they all follow the same trajectory.

Oh, and? The dangerous stuff was still out there. But it gets buried under the commercial shite. The dangerous acts get tamed or shoved under the carpet.

Interestingly, it didn't quite happen to prog. Partially because prog was never really "dangerous" to the status quo, partially because prog was mostly not very political (how political is a seasoned witch?). They tried to do it with some of the biggest selling prog bands - I mean EL&P, who the suits tried to tame-and-sexualize with Love Beach; or Genesis, where they briefly tried to make Phil Collins look sexy - but it never took, because the people who respond to the tamed-and-sexualized music don't have the patience for what those bands were doing.

Let's take a closer look at one subgenre, punk, which has its real roots in the Velvets and the Stooges and MC5 and their ilk, and in another direction in the Who and the Stones and their ilk... British punk had the Clash and Siouxsie and a bunch of other acts, American punk had Ramones and X and Dead Kennedies, but who made headlines? The Punk Monkees, the Sex Pistols, a manufactured band who even covered a Monkees song live. Their cod nihilism and rebellion was perfect for selling and image and records, while the genuinely dangerous acts were kept quiet. (Yes, the Clash eventually made it semi-big, but their hits were generally relatively safe songs like "London Calling" and "Rock the Casbah" and ferghodsake "Train in Vain.")

Follow the money, and follow the politics. They coonjine.

While you and I will never agree on Zeppelin, this is all essentially correct. The suits, the corporations, THE MAN, always try to take the piss and vinegar out of everything good that comes out of our culture. We've seen this happen in virtually every medium.

[GuitarGeek]

Am I the only one who reads Elton's comments as being strictly about the 80's? Because that's how it reads to me.

That said, this is an interesting discussion and I find a lot I agree with here.

It should probably also be mentioned that those 60's California bands, like The Byrds (as one example), were also "manufactured" bands who had studio musicians playing their albums since most of them couldn't play instruments initially. There were a surprising number of these, including the Beach Boys. Of course, both the Beach Boys and The Byrds had one person that could actually play an instrument and wrote the songs, and in both cases the members did eventually learn to play their instruments, but this was actually the norm in the southern California music scene in the early to mid-60's.

Uh, you're talking about The Byrds first single there, two frelling songs, where they used The Wrecking Crew. The rest of the first album, and in general most of their subsequent albums were played by the real band, at least so far as the original lineup era was concerned. I know Clarence White played a guitar solo or two on Younger Than Yesterday (a couple years before White actually joined the band), and there's the occasional "sweetener" (like the brass on Lady Friend) and I think they may have used a few studio guys later on, after the original lineup fell apart.

The only one of the original lineup who wasn't an experienced musician was drummer Michael Clarke, who reputedly got asked to join the band because he looked like Brian Jones. But McGuinn, Crosby, Hillman and Gene Clark were all seasoned coffeehouse vets. And McGuinn, Crosby, and Clark all wrote songs, it wasn't just one guy (oh yeah, and there were plenty of cover tunes too, but then everyone did lots of covers back then).

As for The Beach Boys, if I'm not mistaken, on the early records, its' really Brian, Carl, Dennis, Al, and Mike (who played occasional sax) playing on the records. It was only later, when Brian started getting ambitious with his artistic vision and especially after he stopped touring, that he started using the Wrecking Crew. And I've always heard it said that even when they were using studio musicians on The Beach Boys records, Carl still played guitar on virtually all the sessions.

But you are correct that there was a lot of studio musicians used on records by various bands in the LA area, as detailed in the Wrecking Crew documentary. Apparently, Gary Lewis has never worked with a guitarist who could actually play the Spanish guitar runs on whichever song it was, I forget, like Tommy Tedesco did on the record. And I think a similar process happened with the British acts recording in London during the same time frame too.

And while it became less common after the end of the 60's, it still happened from time to time. You should see the list of records that Steve Lukather played guitar on. He's on a track on Cheap Trick's Dream Police album, that's him playing the solo on She's A Beauty by The Tubes (I once heard that particular Tubes record described as "essentially Toto pretending to be The Tubes").

Kiss, Aerosmith and Alice Cooper all made the occasional use of studio musicians (by Alice Cooper, I mean the original band, I read that there's a couple tracks on one of the records where either Dick Wagner or Steve Hunter, I forget which, had to deputize for Glenn Buxton).

There's also lots of deputies on The Wall. Gilmour specifically named One Of My Turns and Is There Anybody Out There as two songs he needed help on, the former because he couldn't come up with an idea for the solo, and the latter because he couldn't play the nylon guitar part fingerstyle, and he felt it had to be played that way on the record. And the majority of the keyboards on that record were not played by Rick Wright.

Future American Idol judge (and Jean-Luc Ponty alumnus) Randy Jackson played on one song by Blue Oyster Cult, a great tune called Shooting Shark, on their Revolution By Night album.

Duck Dunn deputized for Ron Blair on a couple songs on Tom Petty's Hard Promises album.

There's probably countless others, I just can't think of right now.

Then there's Union, but we won't talk about that.

[ronmac]

^^ Perfect example would be Rick Derringer. He's on a surprising amount of songs by other artists.