Agreed on both points. They receive points for aspiration but ultimately it's kitsch.Originally Posted by JJ88
Agreed on both points. They receive points for aspiration but ultimately it's kitsch.
Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes
I recently started a thread about Protoprog at the Avant Prog group on FB
“So after the never ending Psychedelic binge - I thought it would be great to go further and explore the evolution and early days of Progressive rock aka Proto Prog
What are your favorite proto prog bands and albums ?
Jethro Tull The Nice Procol Harum The Moody Blues The Arthur Brown Band , Giles Giles & Fripp ,The Move Spooky Tooth Frumpy The Gods High Tide Renaissance
Blodwyn Pig
The denomination Proto Prog comes from the combination of two words, Proto from the Greek The earliest,. and Prog which as we know is a short term for Progressive Rock, so as it's name clearly indicates, refers to the earliest form of Progressive Rock or Progressive Rock in embryonary state.
These bands normally were formed and released albums before Progressive Rock had completely developed (there are some rare Proto Prog bands from the early 70's, because the genre didn't expanded to all the Continents simultaneously
The common elements in all these bands is that they developed one or more elements of Prog, and even when not completely defined as part of the genre, they are without any doubt, an important stage in the evolution of Progressive Rock.
Generally, Proto Prog bands are the direct link between Psyche and Prog and for that reason the Psychedelic components are present in the vast majority of them, but being that Progressive Rock was born from the blending of different genres, we have broadened the definition to cover any band that combined some elements of Progressive Rock with other genres prior to 1970.
Some of these bands evolved and turned into 100% Prog, while others simply choose another path, but their importance and contribution in the formative period of Prog can't be denied, for that reason no Prog site can ignore them.
Proto-prog (short for "proto-progressive") is the first wave of British progressive rock musicians who branched from psychedelia or the advanced music that slightly predates the full-fledged prog era. Progressive rock (originally "progressive pop") evolved from psychedelic/acid rock music, specifically a strain of classical/symphonic rock led by the Nice, Procol Harum, and the Moody Blues.Proto-prog musicians harnessed modern classical and other genres usually outside of traditional rock influences, longer and more complicated compositions, interconnected songs as medley, and studio composition.
Although a unidirectional English "progressive" style emerged in the late 1960s, by 1967, progressive rock had come to constitute a diversity of loosely associated style codes. When the "progressive" label arrived, the music was dubbed "progressive pop" before it was called "progressive rock",with the term "progressive" referring to the wide range of attempts to break with standard pop music formula. Author Doyle Greene believes that the "proto-prog" label can stretch to "the later Beatles and Frank Zappa", Pink Floyd, Soft Machine, and United States of America. Edward Macan says that psychedelic bands like the Nice, the Moody Blues, and Pink Floyd represent a proto-progressive style and the first wave of English progressive rock. Hegarty and Halliwell identify the Beatles, the Beach Boys, the Doors, the Pretty Things, the Zombies, the Byrds, the Grateful Dead and Pink Floyd "not merely as precursors of prog but as essential developments of progressiveness in its early days".
Both the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds (1966) and the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (1967), with their lyrical unity, extended structure, complexity, eclecticism, experimentalism, and influences derived from classical music forms, are largely viewed as beginnings in the progressive rock genre. Critics assumed King Crimson's album In the Court of the Crimson King (1969) to be the logical extension and development of late 1960s proto-progressive rock exemplified by the Moody Blues, Procol Harum, Pink Floyd, and the Beatles. According to Macan, the album may be the most influential to progressive rock for crystallizing the music of earlier "proto-progressive bands ... into a distinctive, immediately recognizable style". He distinguishes 1970s "classic" prog from late 1960s proto-prog by the conscious rejection of psychedelic rock elements, which proto-progressive bands continued to support.
Mo, I am not sure I agree with you here. I think it is perhaps easy to dismiss this as kitsch if you listen to it with 2019 ears. But when it first came out- and that is when I bought it- it was as out there as out there could be. In 1969, few records sounded like this one, at least stateside. And "Circe" is a heavy-duty composition for all of its 4 minutes. It is as prog as prog gets in 1969.They receive points for aspiration but ultimately it's kitsch.
I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.
Last five tunes from my Iphones proto prog playlist today:
Tell My Why - Skin Alley
Boats - Spring
Hangin' On an Eyelid - Second Hand
Magic Beam - Circus 2000
Plastic Man - Dodkin
no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone
^ All 5 of these are great in my book. It took me years to really appreciate Spring and Bodkin, but now I enjoy the heck out of them.
Didn't someone here organise a proto prog poll at some point or did I just imagine that?
I can't believe it, not even one post in over 3 years.
@nosebone - where are you?
All proto-prog fans are gone from PE?
There is a new British label releasing archival material from 70s called Seelie Court. One of their newer release is
"Ages Come And Ages Go" by the band called As You Like it. It consists of 8 tracks recorded between 1973 and 1975, but released for the first time year ago. I have to admit, I really love the vintage style/vibe of early 70's UK progressive rock bands and As You Like It is one of them. The band played a melodic, song based, Hammond organ driven progressive rock with beautiful vocal harmonies in the vein of bands such as Spring, Cressida,, Cirkus, Fantasy and to some extend Beggar's Opera (Hammond organ work and classical arrangements on couple tracks). Highly recommended to all who like early 70s UK prog aka proto-prog.
^ Yeah, I've been picking up select Seelie Court releases too.
It's an interesting label releasing immense rarities and also digging up acetate releases from the studios vaults, but I think they are scrapping off the bottom of the barrel as far as quality is concerned. They're aiming more towards a completists' market of UK's post-psych/proto-prog and everything in between...
Seelie Court has been putting out some great stuff in the last two years, including a reissue of the Grannie album. First time I heard As You Like It was on the Lullabies For Catatonics compilation on Grapefruit Records (Cherry Red).
Interviewer of reprobate ne'er-do-well musicians of the long-haired rock n' roll persuasion at: www.velvetthunder.co.uk and former scribe at Classic Rock Society. Only vaguely aware of anything other than music.
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I agree with you Spyros, they are scrapping off the bottom of the barrel but...still better that than nothing. I really enjoyed listening to all the CDs I purchased from Seelie Court catalog. It felt like new breeze of fresh vintage sounds of 70s after few years of being unable to discover music that suits my taste. I don't care much for current Prog (with some exceptions) and I discovered what was to discover from my favorite years in music long time ago. So kudos to Seelie Court for releasing these rare recordings. Hopefully the artists will get at least part of the profits.
Last edited by enigmatic; 06-14-2022 at 08:19 PM.
Agree, but so were labels like Kissing Spell and Holyground doing already by the mid-90s. Who'll ever forget the "legendary" Gygafo (Get 'Yer Gear and Fuck Off)?
Typically, the best track on the release was included on the second CD reissue exclusively:
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
I thought that was released on the Background label.Agree, but so were labels like Kissing Spell and Holyground doing already by the mid-90s. Who'll ever forget the "legendary" Gygafo (Get 'Yer Gear and Fuck Off)?
Typically, the best track on the release was included on the second CD reissue exclusively:
I was able to listen to most of their catalogue, but only Sindelfingen and Raw Material's debut was of "major" interest (what a stunning artwork)... and to a lesser extent, Pussy, Gygafo, Ithaca and Agincourt.
Assuredly, Repertoire might have reissued RM's debut if Background hadn't.
Last edited by Trane; 06-15-2022 at 05:13 PM.
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
Wow. I liked the Gygafo enough to spring for an original copy, even though I had the CD reissue.
Aha! But Moe - did you also like Elias Hulk?!
"What You Don't Know (Won't Hurt You)" is actually a fine piece of songmaking. Some of those other tracks on the original release aren't all too bad either, and the band scores big time for an overarching narrative feel and aura alone, not altogether unlike the early Jade Warrior. But somehow I never really marked it out as particularly memorable in the end (the Gygafo), not to the extent that some other scarce obscurities like Sindelfingen or Rustic Hinge or Motherlight (Bobak, Jons, Malone) are relished as sincerely original and innovative works of the era that should have garnered at least a minimum of acclaim.
That drum solo on the Hulk album slays, though. Even folks who never heard a drum solo to begin with tend to burst into involuntary jolly on encountering the talents at play there. Not nearly as creative as the "Foot-Foot" one on The Shaggs' stupendous debut, but tampering the temper nonetheless.
Last edited by Scrotum Scissor; 06-16-2022 at 10:13 AM.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
John du Cann before he went to Atomic Rooster.
Among early 70s Heavy Rock, it's not near the top of the pile for me. Having said that, I still play it from time to time, and think it's vastly better than 80s Hair Metal, or most of the other iterations of Hard Rock styles from the decades that came after.
80s Hair Metal was what I grew up with as an adolescent teenager, and I tried desperately from 10-13 y.o. to embrace its purported and/or alleged determination of masculine nourishment - to no avail whatsoever. By the time I turned 14 I was listening to Hendrix, Doors, Cream and The Who instead, all of which possessed that exact trait that the poodles were so desperately attempting to pursue, albeit without ever having found or understood to start with - power. Of artistic conviction and commitment, of sonic force, of firsthand real-time creativity. There was essentially little or nothing done musically as well as image-wise by the hairs that hadn't already been outdone a hundredfold by The Sweet or Slade or Alex Harvey or Marc Bolan a decade previously, and the obese/obtuse failure of the poodles to achieve anything other than shallow commercialist recognition practically said a sad tale of downfall as far as "big rock" development was concerned.
In other words; it doesn't take a lot to make better than 80s Hair Metal, vastly or at least tiny bit. Extreme metal, late post-punk and hardcore plus an early wave of what would soon be 'grunge' were all exceptionally welcome treats of relief and upheavals in then-contemporary rock music.
I spin the 'Hulk myself from time to time, perhaps every second year or so. Which isn't too often, I know, but more frequent than I spin that debut Clear Blue Sky or Gun or plenty other records I find direly mediocre from that period. I mean, I still tend to even enjoy those somewhat heralded titles by Writing On The Wall, Dark et al. and yet I hardly ever play them at all anymore. I think it must be that irresistible 'Hulk drum solo which sorta sucks me back in again.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
^ When I see footage of live performances by Hair Metal bands, I find it embarrassing. Borderline cringe. Poodles is a good tag. I didn't like it then or now.
For me, the cream (npi) of the Heavy Rock scene is stuff like Wicked Lady, Samuel Prody, Human Beast, Ginhouse. Other stuff that's hard, but too proggy to pigeonhole as Heavy Rock also gets plenty of spins. Think May Blitz, Hard Meat, etc.
Yeah, love me some Wicked Lady. I'd throw in the mighty debut from Hard Stuff too......wow!
This one (A Game for All Who Know, 1973) is seriously underrated, IMO. Their ambitious angle of folk-progressive post-psych was surely put to better release by Mellow Candle, Trees, Strawbs, Spirogyra and Fuchsia (all of whom are rightfully honoured by connoisseurs today), but there are still some glorious moments of fullfilness, sophisticated depth and finesse on it, sometimes setting them apart from many others of their ilk in the UK (Tudor Lodge, Axe and the like). Parts of it even remind me of the pseudo-legendary Third Estate from Louisiana (US), sharing much of the same adventurous sense of arrangement, daring structure and unconventional harmonic course.
More people should hear it.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
^ The Ithaca album is one of my all-time favorites. Not sure where it would rank in my Pantheon, but it would certainly be there.
As would Galactic Ramble.
Parameter's Galactic Ramble? Neh, not on the same level with the bands mentioned by Scrotum Scissor. At least IMO. Agreed, Ithaca seriously underrated and one of my all -time favorites from folk-progressive category, together with Fuchsia, Tudor Lodge, Spirogyra, Mellow Candle. I never heard of Third Estate from Lousiana.
Most haven't. Ergo the "pseudo" status which arose solely from their one 1976 album's standing among collectors as well as all the fuzz and confusion about their rather mysterious origins. During the mid-80s, upcoming European alternative acts like Cocteau Twins, The Dream Academy, Current 93 and especially The Legendary Pink Dots' Edward Ka-Spel kept referring to it as a "secret classic that nobody'd ever heard of". Which was odd, seeing as the record itself was practically impossible to trace outside of fanzine distributions of cassette copies etc.
In 1993 I got a 1985 Austrian repress of it, this at a time when even hardcore collectors here in Scandinavia had obviously heard about the title as such but usually not the music contained. I found it weird how someone would go through all the troubles of reissuing a hyper-obscurity in 150 units of vinyl (of which I got no. 022), but on diving into the music I came to realize that this was indeed something quite special and peculiar. The spirit of romantic catharsis is almost overwhelming in these songs, to the degree of feigning gothic commotions in allusions to literature, film, arts and the lot. Some of it sounds sectarian or even "cultish" in emotional litany and pretense, but there's simply so much feel and divine aspirations involved that I can't help but to give in and take it. Sometimes slightly amateurish in performance and production, but that's precisely one of its virtues - strengthening convictions in the redeeming goals of absolution as to will, love and the beyond of everyman.
And so I keep returning to it.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Mojo Magazine did quite a few CDs (free with the magazine) of 'heavy', occasionally prog-aligned tracks from the late 60s/early 70s.
https://www.discogs.com/release/1142...Gems-1968-1973
https://www.discogs.com/release/4533...sh-Underground
https://www.discogs.com/release/5765...ck-Underground
The Grapefruit label have done a substantial release including that Ithaca album, but I do not own it. I'm not sure I've ever heard the album but know of it as one of those mega-rarities.
https://www.discogs.com/release/1114...r-All-Who-Know
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