I can only come up with this conclusion with those statements: You don't like Yes very much...Originally Posted by ssully
I can only come up with this conclusion with those statements: You don't like Yes very much...
Oh you can like (even love) Yes, and have reservations about remixes - my reservations seem to have started this most recent burst of commentsand I adore Yes, have seen them live 3 times, listen to their music all the time etc.
I've been listening more to the Wilson remixes, and my reservations are diminishing a little - bass is lighter than on the originals but not absent, and CTTE is very good, I can live with TFTO, but I'm with Ssully in thinking Relayer is awful. Right from the beginning - on Gates of Delirium there's a lovely keyboard trill at about 9 seconds in which kind of makes sense of all the fluttery stuff Wakeman's been playing so far, and it just vanishes on the Wilson remix. I can't forgive that! I completely accept that the original mix of Relayer is very harsh and raw sounding, but I guess I've got used to it over the years. That's just what Relayer SOUNDS like!
So there you are, an obsessive and slightly unhealthy obsession with Yes is in now way incompatible with disliking some remasters! I'm (near) living proof!
I couldn't find it on a quick YouTube search, but I watched a video last year that compared the vinyl SW remix of one of the Jethro Tull albums to an original vinyl pressing and the original sounded incredibly anemic compared to the remix. So I think what you hear is pretty close to reality.
While I absolutely agree that it would be incorrect to judge something until you've heard it, I do believe that if someone has done enough to garner trust (Manfred Eicher comes immediately to mind), then it's certainly not "bizarre cult of personality" to have interest in checking out subsequent work based upon that trust.
And sure; sometimes they disappoint (ECM's The Epidemics being the very best example I can think of - what the heck was the label thinking?!?!). But more often than not they prove absolutely worthy of the trust. Everyone, after all, makes the occasional misstep.
But I don't think there's anything wrong with trusting folks whose work has largely proven them deserving....frankly, it's how I've been turned on to some great music that I'd not otherwise have checked out, were it not for a terrific artist, producer - or, sometimes, yes, engineer. Wilson, being one example of someone who has remixed or remastered an album with which I previously had problems. TftTO, largely due to sonics, is a good example; I always liked the music but it always felt flat, with the drums, in particular, sounding like cardboard boxes; now, I love the record, appreciating it far more because everything is more transparent and the overall sound cleaner and clearer. So, the music may not have changed but is far easier to appreciate now because of the added clarity, transparency and/or depth that Wilson brought with his remix.
And for me, trusting people doesn't necessarily mean that one (speaking for myself) expects everything they do to be at the same level, though it does mean I tend to have certain expectations of them that they rarely, if ever, do not meet. It only means that their work is generally good enough that, for me, they're absolutely worth checking out...and, more often than not, their work meets my expectations, even if, using Wilson as an example, there are some remixes he does that I think are better than others.
All that said, I don't think, in a world where trust and respect seem all too hard to come by, that finding some people you can, indeed, trust and respect, regardless of what it is they do, is a bad thing. But that's just me
Last edited by jkelman; 04-20-2018 at 03:40 PM.
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
Except, of course, it's not Wakeman, but Patrick Moraz, who plays keys on Relayer....just sayin'
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
What a great post. You eloquently and kindly stated what I would have said in a less-respectful fashion.While I absolutely agree that it would be incorrect to judge something until you've heard it, I do believe that if someone has done enough to garner trust (Manfred Eicher comes immediately to mind), then it's certainly not "bizarre cult of personality" to have interest in checking out subsequent work based upon that trust.
And sure; sometimes they disappoint (ECM's The Epidemics being the very best example I can think of - what the heck was the label thinking?!?!). But more often than not they prove absolutely worthy of the trust. Everyone, after all, makes the occasional misstep.
But I don't think there's anything wrong with trusting folks whose work has largely proven them deserving....frankly, it's how I've been turned on to some great music that I'd not otherwise have checked out, were it not for a terrific artist, producer - or, sometimes, yes, engineer. Wilson, being one example of someone who has remixed or remastered an album with which I previously had problems. TftTO, largely due to sonics, is a good example; I always liked the music but it always felt flat, with the drums, in particular, sounding like cardboard boxes; now, I love the record, appreciating it far more because everything is more transparent and the overall sound cleaner and clearer. So, the music may not have changed but is far easier to appreciate now because of the added clarity, transparency and/or depth that Wilson brought with his remix.
And for me, trusting people doesn't necessarily mean that one (speaking for myself) expects everything they do to be at the same level, though it does mean I tend to have certain expectations of them that they rarely, if ever, do not meet. It only means that their work is generally good enough that, for me, they're absolutely worth checking out...and, more often than not, their work meets my expectations, even if, using Wilson as an example, there are some remixes he does that I think are better than others.
All that said, I don't think, in a world where trust and respect seem all too hard to come by, that finding some people you can, indeed, trust and respect, regardless of what it is they do, is a bad thing. But that's just me
Thank you.
Oh god I knew that, how embarrassing - he was only around for 1 album and I didn't credit him! But I love him for doing that gorgeous trill, and it's almost inaudible on the Wilson remix.Except, of course, it's not Wakeman, but Patrick Moraz, who plays keys on Relayer....just sayin'
This whole discussion has been very like what you get on classical music forums about different musicians playing the same piece - its all where you heard it first, what you like about it and what your favourite bits are! I have Japanese SACD versions of these discs, which are basically cleaned-up versions of the originals, and I have to say that, for me, they win over the Wilson every time. But I can see there's nothing wrong with the Wilsons, they just don't go in a direction I like. I'd advise anyone to listen before buying, as it's quite the investment.
And tell Patrick I'm so, so sorry! And I loved 'i'!
Thanks...my pleasure. I really have tried, as I've gotten older and faced a number of health challenges, to be more of a "cup half full" kinda guy, one who treats folks with respect and who enters into new relationships from a position of trust and respect rather than suspicion and cynicism. It seems to,work, for the most part...we live in such a dark time when it comes to human interaction, and the only thing I can try to do about it is, to quote an overused but good phrase, "think globally, act locally." Naive, perhaps, but I truly really believe that if everyone treated everyone around them - from friends and family to waiters, retail folks, parking garage attendants...everyone - I think,we could see some things improve.
There are things that cost so little:a cheerful hello to a cab driver who might have just been with a nasty client; saying thank you to someone who does their job for you...these things cost nothing and can help someone ele's day. And if that means they pay it forward? All the better.
Sorry to wax philosophic, but this has been on my mind recently...and is brought to the fore when I read s9me folks here and elsewhere who are so cynical and mistrusting. No disrespect to them,,but I just cannot live that way.
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
Hey Man, it was an honest mistake...no need to feel embarrassed!
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
Another excellent post, John.
I have had a series of excellent teachers with regards to being kind and generous. My late brother made the biggest impact.
What one puts out, one receives back.
I'd feel somewhat bad about going off-topic with this sort of thing but I feel that "Tales" is a great CD for illustrating this general train of thought.
(And to me, the re-mix is a huge improvement on the original mix.)
True Yesfans, where we be without them?
Except, I was referring to comparison of the flat transfer of the Tales original mix, to various remasters of *the original mix*. Not a remix (I don't give a fig for Wilson's 2-channel remixes, and even he seems to consider them secondary to his 5.1s)
Two CD masterings of Tales (Japanese HDCD from the early 2000s, and the later Rhino 'Tales box' remaster), and one LP version (Japanese pressing from mid 1980s), all sound so much more robust and better-balanced than the 'flat transfer' that I'm really wondering if something went wrong with the transfer (or the true original masters were used).
I know exactly what part you're referring to, and I noticed its absence right away too. Things didn't get better after that. It's not the only missing part (the liner notes apologize for absence of some elements that must have been added at the cutting stage). But it's not just the occasional missing mix element. I don't know what was done to Relayer -- noise reduction? -- but it sounds *dead* and disjointed, all the snap sucked out of it. And such strange mix and production choices at times. To Be Over, in particular, is a huge disappointment. What on earth was Wilson thinking when he redid the end of that one? It should have been glorious.
Seeing a few of these posts about Relayer, I'm kinda glad I didn't get the Wilson remix of that. It's my favorite Yes album (one of my favorite albums period), and I already own 3 versions of it, so I probably didn't need another.
I will say I did really like his remix of "Tales" though!
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Tales From Topographic Oceans turned 50!
I wrote a review of the album: https://pienemmatpurot.com/review-ye...c-oceans-1973/
My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/
Nice review! Tales is one of my lifetime-favorite albums. You have noticed and articulated many of the wonderful aspects of this masterpiece. ***** Indeed!
There are so many spellbinding lyrics in Tales, one of my faves:
The future poised with the splendour just begun.
Thanks! I appreciate that!
My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/
Jon’s lyrics are often ridiculed but I too love the wordplay on Tales. I played all four sides today before I realised it was the 50th anniversary, it’s still a sublime piece of work.
I would certainly dispute the charge of humorlessness in the review. The lyrics contain at least one outright joke: "School gates remind us of our class."
Hurtleturtled Out of Heaven - an electronic music composition, on CD and vinyl
https://michaelpdawson.bandcamp.com
http://www.waysidemusic.com/Music-Pr...MCD-spc-7.aspx
21010388.jpg
best
Michael
If it ain't acousmatique-It's crap
Probably literal, and not intended as humor.
Best Tales lyric
Change we must as surely time does
Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit
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