Infamously by Ollie North.Originally Posted by Kcrimso
Infamously by Ollie North.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Oh yeah, now I remember seeing Edward Snowden speaking about this recently.
My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/
How you regarded My Life in the Bush of Ghosts? New Wave maybe?
How you regarded No Pussyfooting back in the day?(...)(...)
Not back in the day, but I *DO* regard it as a proto-ambient classic - although this hardly forms a "genre". And I agree that the Byrne/Eno could certainly be called 'ambient rock', although I'm not sure that's a genre either. I dunno; the 'art-pop/rock' moniker is oceanic in its width, but it probably belongs there. Of course, 'progressive' was a part of art-rock as well, so...
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Of course not. Progressive rock was / is a different genre than Art Rock. Art Rock is, for example, Roxy Music s/t debut, For Your Pleasure, Stranded and so on, Eno's Here Come the Warm Jets, 10cc' albums Sheet Music, The Original Soundtrack, How Dare You! and so on, Pete Townshend' solo albums, John Martyn's Inside Out and Solid Air, Kate Bush's The Kick Inside, Joni Mitchell's The Hissing of Summer Lawns, Hejira, Mingus and so on.
Look, what I meant was that the two terms were intertwined in their 'public' usage. Genesis, for instance, were often labelled 'art-rock'. So what? This in passing, I'd rather refer to Byrne/Eno as art-rock than, eh, "prog".
We should continue this dicussion now, as it holds so many fruitful revelations for pholks.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Expect to be slapped down by SS.
I understand the difference between prog and art rock in much the same way you do. However, I have come to realise that there are differences from country to country in the way those terms were understood.
No one in Australia would have called 10cc "Progressive Rock" at the time those early albums were released. They MIGHT have referred to Jean-Michel Jarre as such, though more likely he would have been called "electronic" along with people like Vangelis, Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk. Later on the division between electronica and prog became blurred when people started to "cross over", eg Jon Anderson's collaborations with Vangelis.
These labels don't cause me any loss of sleep, I just think it's worth pointing out that when people say "band X were always considered genre A", that may have been true where they grew up, but not true in another part of the world.
Nobody in the world was called 10cc "prog".
My Life in The Bush of Ghosts was regarded as PROG back in 1981 simply because 1) the multiply tags weren't existed 2) ambient rock was considered as a sub-genre of prog.
The fact that in the Internet age the term 'ambient rock' is nearly extinct*, does not change anything; My Life in The Bush of Ghosts was regarded as ambient rock as well as e.g. No Pussyfooting and Another Green World; no one of these albums were called 'art rock' because these albums aren't Art Rock i.e. they are not in the same genre with 10cc albums and / or Kate Bush's late 70s albums.
*the term 'ambient rock' is nearly extinct mostly because the history of progressive music over the Internet is written by those who did not listen to the prog back in the day or just sometimes in late-night radio program, so e.g. progarchives had category *ambient rock* which which was later thrown out by the "specialists" (i.e. motherfuckers who moved Brian Eno from 'ambient rock' to 'progressive electronic').
Last edited by Svetonio; 03-10-2016 at 07:44 AM.
That's a bit strong. Surely Eno was ambient AND progressive AND electronic. Does it matter that much where they filed him?
By me, for one. If it's not prog what is it?
BTW, if 80s Gabriel is prog, so is Kate Bush.
I am just suprised that it was already in 1981 called prog. I was only five years then so I don't know how it was called but it just seems little bit weird. It would be interesting to read some reviews from that era and see if word "prog" really was used.
Now I would maybe call it art rock (Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel also fit better under art rock than prog IMHO).
My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/
You weren't into prog already at five?!!
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
I got Five Miles Out when I was 9 years. I was hooked then!You weren't into prog already at five?!!
My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/
Svetonio, you can easily shut down all argument by posting scans of reviews of MLitBoG from music publications of the day such as Sounds, Melody Maker, Trouser Press, Circus (or many others) in which they call it a Prog-Rock album or call Ambient Rock a part of the Progressive Rock fraternity. Everyone will then happily agree with your take on the subject.
Not strong at all, it's mildly put actually, because the "specialists" repositioned Brian Eno from the historical genre where he belongs, from the genre of which Mr Eno was one of the pioneers (i.e. Mr Eno was one of few who invented ambient rock as a sub-genre of progressive music) and put him in the section which is reserved, at progarchives, for Berlin School of electronic music (for example, Vangelis, who wasn't a part of Berlin School, is in progarchives' artificial "prog-related" genre, although he also was regarded as ambient rock artist back in the midd-seventies). Btw, "progressive electronic", as a genre, never existed before the "specialists" "invented" it.
Also, the same "specialists" were kicked out Art rock section, so e.g. 10cc, the greatest British Art Rock band, now is "prog-related"; Kate Bush, also great British Art Rock act, now is in "crossover prog" section, etc.
Actually, I do not care that much, because I am old and I know how the bands were labeled before Internet, but what the "specialists" are doing with that stupid revisionism? Their revisionism actually makes a real confusion in the minds of new prog-fans and consenquently they do not know what they're talking about when it comes to the albums like My Life In The Bush of Ghosts and such.
Last edited by Svetonio; 03-10-2016 at 11:38 AM.
^^ Well, I still think "motherfucker" is way too strong a word to put on someone, just because you disagree with the way they categorise a piece of music. You say you "don't care that much", so I'm wondering how you would have phrased your comment if you were really passionate about the issue.
It's just music we are discussing here, for heaven's sake, not about someone coming and raping your wife and children and torching your house.
Are you kiddin'? Can you be a mammal, an insect and a reptile at the same time ? This is Science !
Eno has a very diverse catalog, while he is clearly a pioneer in ambient he also has albums that touch all sorts of "sub-genres". Here Come The Warm Jets is hardly ambient. One of accepted weaknesses of PA is the one band one genre relationship. Jethro Tull are in Prog Folk when only 2 or 3 of their albums fall into that genre.
Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/
Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
I blame Wynton, what was the question?
There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.
Ok, I'll take back that "strong word" and replacing it with prog gods what the progarchives' "specialists" actually want to be there so that no one should be hurt now.
So, do you know that King Crimson was in progarchives' Art Rock section, while this section existed there and before they made that "eclectic prog" section?
Well, this is pretty strong evidence that the prog gods just casually knew for the term "art rock" and that they actually had no idea what Art Rock really was / is.
Later on, they kicked Art Rock section out. Do you know why? In order not to have Joni Mitchell and other American Art Rock stars in that former Art Rock section - due to those self-produced prog-gods' extremely anglocentricism.
Last edited by Svetonio; 03-10-2016 at 11:22 AM.
I said in one of my previous posts that Here Come The Warm Jets is Art Rock album.
I agree. Another example is my favourite Yugo-prog band Smak which is in jazz-rock / fusion section, although they never recorded one album which is full-blown jazz-rock / fusion. I wrote to them to move Smak in "eclectic prog" because of their literally eclectic music, but it was ignored by the prog gods.
Last edited by Svetonio; 03-10-2016 at 11:34 AM.
You are correct, but for where my head and focus was for prog at the time, it was a dry spell. Plus, I don't know, I don't discount the albums listed on this thread, but on some level, a few of them are pretty obscure, are they not? That's not to discount their quality, but whereas the original post references it being a dry spell for "progressive rock", that may still be a fair statement. Then again, it depends on what one's definition of "progressive rock" is. You use the term "sympho" which on some level is what "progressive rock" was best known for at the time. For me the key of the original question is that he didn't state it was a dry spell for 'progressive' music, but more so for 'progressive rock'. That is at least how I took the question. I need to be specific about it being my perception so as not to get jumped on.
Soooooo, Chuck, have you come to a decisionas to which albums you'll keep for your site?
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, though I do think you are extrapolating your own theories into fact. " In order not to have Joni Mitchell and other American Art Rock stars in that former Art Rock section". Did they state that as the reason, or is that just your conjecture?
It's just that I'm amazed at how worked up people get over this issue. Even over the Internet, I can almost see you frothing at the mouth.
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