Olias Of Sunhillow: How much `help' did Jon Anderson have with keyboards ?

[ronmac]

I'm a huge Leslie West fan and never knew the story about working on "Won't Get Fooled Again." Of course, I can't stand The Who, so maybe that's why.

Back on topic, Jon clearly has enough musical ability to create an entire album by himself. Virtuosity? Maybe not. But, good enough to get the job done and create something as magical and memorable as Olias. We're still talking about it nearly 40 years later, after all.

[ronmac]

And, while some may argue that he hasn't evolved as a musician, he certainly has as a vocalist.

[Paulrus]

Honestly, I think there's plenty other areas of investigation, musical and mostly otherwise, that could make good use of your innate talent for scepticism, but please give up on this one, this is really getting tiresome.

Hear, hear.

If folks want something else Olias-ish from Jon I would second Henry's mention of Angel's Embrace. It's much more straight new-age, but delivers lots of the layered synths and ethereal vocalizing found on parts of Olias.

I'll also add that a sort of "Son-of-Olias" does exist in the form of The Sky and His Shadow which Jon produced as soundtrack music for an art exhibition in 1975. To my ears it's an embryonic warm up for what became Olias. Aymeric or Henry can probably fill in the details, but from what I've read The Sky and His Shadow was played (as a recording) at an exhibition of paintings by Andre Verdet. Jon met Verdet while in the south of France (possibly while visiting Vangelis?) and composed some music (on Vangelis' keyboards?) for an exhibition of his paintings, to be played in the background. It's space-y synth music with some spoken word poetry, supposedly from Verdet.

Anyways, I could totally see how after that experience Jon took what he'd learned, went back to England, locked himself away and produced Olias. Were some phone calls made to Vangelis to help sort out what filter did what? Possibly. But I'd also suspect that Brian Gaylor -- who is credited for "electronics" -- was Jon's go-to technical advisor. Has anyone ever tracked down that guy and asked him about Olias?

[Scott Bails]

(b) Actually, a fair few things do sound like Olias. I always hear a connection to Tales from Topographic Oceans. There are elements on The Lost Tapes of Opio that echo Olias.

Henry

I'm just holding out a little hope that Zamran, if it's ever actually released, sounds like Olias.

[Paulrus]

Of course, I can't stand The Who, so maybe that's why.

Heresy! Especially in a Yes thread! (Squire and Banks will come back to haunt you! )

[ProgArtist]

Clearly some minds are set and won't budge no matter the proof. I guess the positive that can be taken from this is that it's a compliment to the work that Anderson did on Olias that some people will refuse to believe that he could have done it!

[Svetonio]

If I recall my Who facts correctly, Leslie West played on a earlier version of Won't Get Fooled Again, not the version that ended up on Who's Next. When it was later released as bonus material on a CD, Leslie was credited.

This is the version of WGFA that you mentioned. I know this version (demo).



But I'v been reading an article wrote by Pete Townshend himself about that WGFA, at original 1971 album version, actually is with Leslie West on it too, yet "hidden". In that article, he explained why they need Leslie West for the final version.

Anyway, there is another example: the fact that Eric Clapton played lead guitar at While My Guitar Gently Weeps, although not credited at the White Album.

[Svetonio]

Because that's what usually happens? If you're a musician, by trade, and you live to create, it just seems illogical that you would create a masterwork like Olias, spending all of that time learning an instrument, and then just abandon it afterwards. Doesn't make any sense.

+1

[Svetonio]

The only thing I question is why he never did another record that even remotely sounds like Olias.

+1

[bondegezou]

Yes, that's another good example. Had that and "Ursprung" been released, I doubt we'd be having these sorts of conversations.

I'm just holding out a little hope that Zamran, if it's ever actually released, sounds like Olias.

Interestingly, when Anderson began work on Zamran, more than 10 years ago, he said he planned to record everything himself, as he'd done on Olias, but he's latterly dropped that plan and has been collaborating with other musicians on the project.

Henry

[Luckie]

It's not like he's playing a synth solo like Ricks on Revealing Science of God.

That was Vangelis as well.

[strawberrybrick]

Kinda surprised no one brought up Jon's harp playing, which he may or may not have continued to develop with Yes in the late 70s.

[Steve983]

I have always found it very hard to believe that Jon arranged and performed all the music on Olias. It is possible but I remain unconvinced.

[Mister Triscuits]

I have always found it very hard to believe that Jon arranged and performed all the music on Olias. It is possible but I remain unconvinced.

The album was actually composed and performed by the Earl of Oxford.

[ProgArtist]

Kinda surprised no one brought up Jon's harp playing, which he may or may not have continued to develop with Yes in the late 70s.

I just listened through the album while working this morning, and the harp really caught my attention. The harp parts are at least as hard as the keyboard parts, but no one seems to think there was a secret harpist brought in on the album. There some harp in Awaken, but as far as I know Anderson didn't continue to practice and improve at his harp playing over the decades. As for the keyboard, almost all of the passages are VERY simple, one handed parts. There is a LOT of layering, and I'm sure this is what adds to the feel that the parts are harder than they really are. There is also a lot of echo, which would make a simple part seem more complex. The most complex keyboard parts I heard today were at the beginning and end of Qoquaq En Transic / Naon / Transic To, and are some descending apreggios, but the "complexity" is again coming from layers and echo. I heard no fast runs- nothing that couldn't have been done by a very CREATIVE novice.

[Sunlight Caller]

I too listened today and it remains a shining beacon of unique Jon-ness to me. Whatever his apparent limitations as a technical instrumental maestro, this man has created some of the cornerstone music of our beloved genre, whether it came in a dream or he plucked it from the ether, he was the conduit.

Who really gives a flying f--- whether he was a demon keys and guitar player too? That's why he aligned himself with such as Chris, Bill, Steve and Rick in the early days. They could translate the ideas into reality.


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[taliesin]

The album was actually composed and performed by the Earl of Oxford.

Actually I believe it was Francis Bacon.

[rdclark]

There's no question in my mind that Anderson played all the parts. It's all very simple; the things that sound complex are loops or synthesizer pre-sets, or the result of repeated overdubbing, to my ear. There may be a few instances of slowing down the master tape to make new parts easier to play as well (a trick I remember using myself back in the day). I'm sure he had plenty of help with patch programming and engineering, and clearly Vangelis was an influence (but hardly the only one, just the most obvious because of the similarity in timbre of some of the featured synth parts).

[2steves]

That was Vangelis as well.

Yes but Vangelis can---and has played fast intricate stuff on Albedo and other of his albums.

[Digital_Man]

There are, indeed, many examples of people playing on albums and not being credited. We know about these because the musicians spill the beans. In this case, both Anderson and Vangelis have repeatedly denied the claim over many years, long after there would be any need for them to make denials, long after their own personal relationship collapsed. Anderson, meanwhile, has given a detailed description of how he made the album that is entirely consistent with his performance abilities.

There is nothing on Olias that is technically complicated to play and Anderson has played keyboards on several other albums. People grossly underestimate Anderson's abilities as an instrumentalist. He's no virtuoso, but he's not an incompetent nincompoop either.

People have looked into this question and have come up with nothing to support the Vangelis hypothesis. I am entirely confident that it's Anderson, with technical help as credited on the album.

Henry

Well, I'm sorry but I don't entirely agree with that assessment. I can believe that Jon played it himself but I can't believe that he didn't at least have some kind of assistance or coaching from Vangelis or even borrow one of his keyboards. It's highly unlikely imo that Vangelis had nothing to do with the making of the album even if it consisted of helping Jon with the programming or talking to Jon on the phone giving him instructions. They were friends at this point and that would make sense to me even if Vangelis didn't technically play on it.

[rojon]

Anyway, Anderson and Vangelis collaborated on at least 7 albums...why don't any of those sound like Olias?

probably one of the best points that could be made about this. with the exception of the mayflower which is a bit Oliasish in sound.....................AND content.

I always hear a connection to Tales from Topographic Oceans.

Olias has a roaring oceanic opening sound which was also used as the opening for the Revealing Science of God. As seen on the remastered expanded TfTO. however it was the better choice to clip it off Revealing. I prefer the "bong" sound, like the dawn of light's spark.

[mx20]

...But I'v been reading an article wrote by Pete Townshend himself about that WGFA, at original 1971 album version, actually is with Leslie West on it too, yet "hidden". In that article, he explained why they need Leslie West for the final version...

I'd love to read about this, can you supply a link? Thanks.

More OT: Jon had, in Yes, all the virtuosity he needed for his ideas. Olias "proves" (or, should prove, but doesn't seem to around here) that he could still express his utterly unique musical vision without virtuosity.

[thos]

It's all Jon, there's no evidence otherwise, except for speculation.
It's an ironic compliment to Jon that people think he did such a good job that it couldn't be him! Awesome.
Nobody seems to doubt that he wrote the story (even though he's never written anything similar before or since).
And as others have said, there isn't much playing on the album that would need a technically advanced musician to play (especially in a private studio when you're not paying by the hour and can try again and again, slow the tapes down, etc to get things right). The tough part sounds more like getting all those layers to sound good together (and sync up as Jon said).
Mike Dunne and Brian Gaylor are the names of the two guys who are credited with working on it with Jon. Has anybody checked whether they have done anything like Olias before or since? Maybe they had secret help too...

Vangelis is actually mentioned in the liner notes if I remember correctly (along with the members of Yes and others), as it's well known that Jon was a big admirer of Vangelis, has considered him to join Yes, and already sung on one of his records.

[bondegezou]

Well, I'm sorry but I don't entirely agree with that assessment. I can believe that Jon played it himself but I can't believe that he didn't at least have some kind of assistance or coaching from Vangelis or even borrow one of his keyboards. It's highly unlikely imo that Vangelis had nothing to do with the making of the album even if it consisted of helping Jon with the programming or talking to Jon on the phone giving him instructions. They were friends at this point and that would make sense to me even if Vangelis didn't technically play on it.

Anderson's said, IIRC, that he was influenced by Vangelis, although Vangelis has denied any direct input.

Henry

[JJ88]

Vangelis has denied any direct input.

Henry

Well there we have it. And yet this will still rumble on and on.