Is that a Mellotron on the intro of Tarkus?!

[Jeremy Bender]

No, the Cal Jam we see is what was broadcast, ABC wasn't going to broadcast all of ELP's set (which ran to 2:05-ish on the BSS tour). I have to assume that all the stuff that was cut out is gone forever, there would have been at least a dozen "ELP Live at Cal Jam Complete!!!" DVD's released by various entities by now.

Even if it by some miracle showed up, it's still not the full Brain Salad Surgery tour show with the curtains, light show and so on. This is what's on my desktop here at work, *that's* what I'd like to see the complete show of:

elp.jpg

[Progbear]

This is heavy-duty vocal overdubbing- see also 'I'm Not In Love'. Mike Oldfield's Incantations opens with a similar thing.

Also: the end of Genesis’ “Afterglow.” I know they had a Mellotron with choir tapes, but I guess they wanted a different effect. They whole “Why wouldn’t they use a Mellotron? THEY ARE AWESOME!!!!!!11!!!11!!onehundredandeleven” attitude is internet-era revisionism.

[pb2015]

Also: the end of Genesis’ “Afterglow.” I know they had a Mellotron with choir tapes, but I guess they wanted a different effect. They whole “Why wouldn’t they use a Mellotron? THEY ARE AWESOME!!!!!!11!!!11!!onehundredandeleven” attitude is internet-era revisionism.

Similar effect on "Spectral Mornings" by Steve Hackett, I've read.

[GuitarGeek]

The difference being that the first song was just the sequencer part, the second the Lowrey organ through a VCS sound that runs throughout the song and the other two could be done today with a cheap sequencer program on a computer. For the Quadrophenia tour, the tapes had all the brass parts, all the keyboard parts, backing vocals, the sea sound effects etc., much more complicated.

Whether you're playing along to a tape, a sequencer, or a laptop, and regardless of what's on any of those, I imagine it's just as difficult to play along to a click track.

What made it difficult on the original Quadrophenia tour, was that they had to do it for most of the Quadrophenia songs, because of all the overdubs. I somehow imagine it was difficult to get Moon to play along to a click track in the first place, but it was probably also a pain in the ass because there wasn't much room for extemporizing, which was of course a big part of The Who sound during the Moon years.

I find it interesting that they never used an onstage keyboardist or horn section until 1979, after Keith had died, and they never had a second guitarist or back up singers until 89. Would have made a lot of that kind of stuff a lot easier to deal with.

[GuitarGeek]

No, the Cal Jam we see is what was broadcast, ABC wasn't going to broadcast all of ELP's set (which ran to 2:05-ish on the BSS tour). I have to assume that all the stuff that was cut out is gone forever, there would have been at least a dozen "ELP Live at Cal Jam Complete!!!" DVD's released by various entities by now.

Yeah, most likely, the raw tapes were erased as soon as they were done editing down for broadcast. The thing that's interesting is Deep Purple's Cal Jam set exists in it's entirety, apparently because their manager at the time actually bought the footage from ABC. Presumably, ELP's people didn't have the same foresight.

As a side note, what I find curious is that though Deep Purple's manager did have the presence of mind to buy the Cal Jam set, they didn't do the same with Deep Purple's previous In Concert appearance, the one with the MKII lineup from the Who Do We Think We Are tour. For that one, they only aired, I think three or four songs, and each one is heavily edited, and that's all that's left of that particular performance.

[GuitarGeek]

Also: the end of Genesis’ “Afterglow.” I know they had a Mellotron with choir tapes, but I guess they wanted a different effect.

Well, the thing about the choir tape on the Mellotron is, like all the more often used Mellotron tapes, it's easily identifiable. Hence, the overdubbed ah's in both cases. So yeah, one would have to assume they wanted something different in this case.

[GuitarGeek]

What a shame there's so little film of ELP in their early 70s pomp, it's basically amateur footage like that (which isn't bad) which is all that we have for this particular period. There's quite a bit from right at the beginning of their career...and then basically only bits and pieces.

That's because you couldn't just film something just for the sake of having a film of it. You had to have a particular project in mind if someone was going to film or videotape your band performing, due to the expense and logistics.

It would have been nice if they could have done another concert film, but maybe they thought it was too soon after the Pictures At An Exhibition thing. (shrug) Too bad they couldn't do something on PBS (as bands like Pink Floyd or the Grateful Dead had done back in 1970) or some other non-commercial broadcast medium, that might have allowed them to air something like Tarkus unedited. THAT'S what I wish we had on tape. Too bad home video didn't exist just yet.

[Progbear]

Well, the thing about the choir tape on the Mellotron is, like all the more often used Mellotron tapes, it's easily identifiable. Hence, the overdubbed ah's in both cases. So yeah, one would have to assume they wanted something different in this case.

That and artifacts like the female choir tapes (which I don’t think Genesis ever used, anyway), which had a soprano singing sharp on every note.

[Sonia_Mota]

It might be a Novatron

[gearHed289]

I somehow imagine it was difficult to get Moon to play along to a click track in the first place, but it was probably also a pain in the ass because there wasn't much room for extemporizing, which was of course a big part of The Who sound during the Moon years.

I find it interesting that they never used an onstage keyboardist or horn section until 1979, after Keith had died, and they never had a second guitarist or back up singers until 89. Would have made a lot of that kind of stuff a lot easier to deal with.

Man, you're not kidding! Moon on a click - I immediately thought "well these guys are brave!" when I first saw footage from the Quad tour. You can hear them fall off the click on Bell Boy around 4:05 while Moon tries to get his cans back on. LOL!



I don't mind Rabbit on keys, but I prefer the Who as a 4 piece.

Sorry, back to Genesis. Or wait, ELP...

[BigSixFan]

They only did Abaddon's Bolero a few times (3? 4?) on the 1973 European "Get Me A Ladder" tour, it just didn't work. They were using tapes and as The Who found out when they tried to do Quadrophenia in 1973 using a bunch of backing tapes, they are fickle, break down, are hard to play along with etc. One of the few bright spots for me of having the orchestra in 1977 (besides Pirates, of course) was they could finally do Abbadon's Bolero justice.

I'm glad ELP never used Mellotron as part of their sound, it set them apart sonically a bit from King Crimson, Yes, Genesis and Gentle Giant.

Yeah, he didn't play it at the Frankfurt Festhalle when I saw them that year. Pity.

[GuitarGeek]

Man, you're not kidding! Moon on a click - I immediately thought "well these guys are brave!" when I first saw footage from the Quad tour. You can hear them fall off the click on Bell Boy around 4:05 while Moon tries to get his cans back on. LOL!



I don't mind Rabbit on keys, but I prefer the Who as a 4 piece.
.

Well, the way they used the horns in 79 and 80 was actually pretty cool, because they just used them on a few songs, namely songs that horns in the first place. The way they used them in 89 was ridiculous, where there being horns on songs that never had horns on them, playing these sort of sitcom theme horn riffs. Supposedly, the reason they had all the extra musicians in 89 was because it was determined they'd have to play at a lower volume level to protect what was left of Pete's hearing (I imagine John and Roger's too...I was told awhile back that Entwistle got really good at reading lips, because his hearing was basically completely gone), but they needed the extra musicians to fill out the sound. Apparently, part of what made The Who sound the way they did was caused by the volume war between Townshend and The Ox, although years later, I saw an interview where Pete said it was the PA, not the band itself, that was "oh so loud".

Then again when they toured Quadrophenia again in 1996, they basically just used the horns to recreate what was on the record.

[A. Scherze]

The chord in sequence is F,Bb,Ab,C,D,F which is an Fm6sus4.

There is a G between the F and Bb, so it really a tone cluster and not a chord.

Although, it might be considered bi-tonal (F min and G min), especially if you look at the order of the notes entrances - roots (F and G), thirds (Bb and Ab), fifths (C and D).

[A. Scherze]

They only did Abaddon's Bolero a few times (3? 4?) on the 1973 European "Get Me A Ladder" tour, it just didn't work. They were using tapes and as The Who found out when they tried to do Quadrophenia in 1973 using a bunch of backing tapes, they are fickle, break down, are hard to play along with etc.

JB, we've discussed this before. They did the bolero with a backing tape on the Spring '72 US tour (prior to the release of Trilogy). They tried again a year later in '73 on the GMaL tour with Lake on Moog and Mellotron.

Also, I'm skeptical about the tape player failure. If it did happen, it was more likely a cable or jack/plug failure, or someone tripping on it, possibly CP's headphone cord.

[Rand Kelly]

There is a G between the F and Bb, so it really a tone cluster and not a chord.

Although, it might be considered bi-tonal (F min and G min), especially if you look at the order of the notes entrances - roots (F and G), thirds (Bb and Ab), fifths (C and D).

Crap! I completely forgot about the G. The idea of this being Lake's voice somehow eluded me and I own the Wilson remix/remaster. WOW!

[ProgArtist]

Crap! I completely forgot about the G. The idea of this being Lake's voice somehow eluded me and I own the Wilson remix/remaster. WOW!

Yeah, I played those notes (sans G) on my keyboard and it didn't quite sound "dense" enough.

[Rand Kelly]

Yeah, I played those notes (sans G) on my keyboard and it didn't quite sound "dense" enough.

I still think I nailed the tone pretty close. I just may try it again with the proper sequence. I also may drench it in echo to get even closer to what Greg was going for.