After spending some nostalgia time with my 60's vinyl, it's time for me to get back to the future. But before I go, I like to ask which one of these early "proto prog" albums do you think was more influential: 'Shine On Brightly" by Procol Harum, or this other stalwart from 1968, 'Ars Longa Vita Brevis' by The Nice?
Last edited by StevegSr; 01-19-2016 at 04:57 PM. Reason: ,
To be or not to be? That is the point. - Harry Nilsson.
Huh. I've never heard of Shine On Brightly, so I'll go with Ars Longa, although admittedly that is not really an answer to your question.
Since "Supper's Ready" is pretty much "In Held Twas In I" Part 2, I'll go with Shine On Brightly.
I have no idea which was more influential, but my preference is Ars Longa. I had both albums when I was but a kid.
I love both of these albums a lot, but I don't think of either one as having been especially influential. A lot of people independently came up with the "string a bunch of half-finished songs together to form an epic" concept; certainly the Who did it earlier than either of these guys.
While I think both band's debut albums were really influential (and commercial successful), SOB certainly was (if only for Homburg), but I'm not sure ALVB was much influential (can't picture it to have sold much either, at the time)
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
Shine On Brightly. Tony Banks for one has mentioned that album in interviews. 'In Held 'Twas In I' is pretty much the prototype for progressive rock 'epics'. Indeed, Transatlantic covered it decades later.
I think the Nice debut probably had more impact than Ars Longa Vita Brevis, which I find patchy, with little material that has endured IMHO. I suppose the second side was an early stab at the rock/orchestra crossover, so there is that.
This piqued my interest so I just listened to "In Held Twas In I" to see what you mean. The narrator at the beginning sounds a TON like Peter Gabriel speaking, and there's a "quirky" section in the middle that might have spawned the idea for "Willow Farm", but the comparisons trail off after that. I can see that perhaps it influenced "Supper's Ready" in some respects, but to call it "part 2" seems a big stretch to me.Originally Posted by undergroundrailroad
ProgEars and other prog posters & prints: http://www.michaelphipps.net
.*AWAKEN*. gentleMASS -touch-
Nice, Deep Purple, Focus, Quatermass, ELP, Trace, Rick Wakeman, Triumvirat, Greenslade, Le Orme, etc, etc
Procol Harum, Crazy World of Arthur Brown, King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Kingdom Come, PFM, Banco, etc etc.
Which strand has endured the longest?
Seconded.
Both albums are PROG, not "proto-prog".
The fact is that 60s prog sounds different than 70s prog, especially different than that prog of the middle and second half of 70s, but 60s prog before In the Court of The Crimson King is also prog, nothing "proto".
Last edited by Svetonio; 01-20-2016 at 07:23 PM.
I disagree. Those bands still had one foot firmly in psych; they were progressive but not "Prog"
Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes
Shine on Brightly. Not only highly influential on 'progressive' rock but on then-current rock music in general, not least in the US. Both its sound and level of ambition seems to have served the development of several well known names, and their effect at large has been namechecked by songwriters not usually associated with PH's turf at all, like Randy Newman and Benny Andersson (of Abba, one of whose fave tunes is apparently "Homburg").
I think Ars Vita has some great parts, but the dated/outworn ones ("Karelia" and that saggy feature with the string section atop Jimmy Smith-organboogie in "Brandenburger") arguably outweigh the goods.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
I think with The Nice, the debut and the 3rd, eponymous album have aged better overall. The latter even has a few retreads on it ('Azrial', the live 'Rondo 69') but I still like it more.
If you're thinking of Nice, I actually find it the most enjoyable of their three (part-) studio efforts. "For Example" was always my single fave of their own songs, but the real treat (IMO, of course) remains that intensity level arising from the improvisations in their rendition of Dylan's "She Belongs to Me" and the way it finally catharses into the closing verse.
I *do* agree that the "Rondo" was as superfluous as ever, though. Never really liked that track to begin with, as it's little but a showcase for Emerson's playoffs to my ears. By far the most tedious thing on their debut, I think.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
I like the original 'Rondo'. Whether another version of it was needed only 2 years later is open to debate.
Just like for America, I prefer the version with David O'List playing guitar on them.
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
ALVB
No!
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
I remember an early Rolling Stone review of A Salty Dog where the reviewer said something like: 'Everybody mentions how strong the first Procol Harum album influenced The Band's debut, but what they don't say is how much that Band's album influenced Shine On Brightly. I'm not sure if he's right, but there's no doubt that there seems to be a 'rural rock' tinge on Shine on Brightly that there wasn't on Procol's first. Of course, that's apart from In Held...', which is still one of my favorite -and most moving- pieces of music ever.
I can recall the same article or something to it's effect as I do have moments of clarity when recalling the sixties. The rest I forgot..Such a loss.
Anyway, there was a brief hype of a "roots movement" after the age of psychedelia, for lack of a better term, which at that time caused people to glob onto any piece of music that sounded "bluesy" (Brooker's vocals) Or Folky, and people tried to come up with who the hell started "this back to the roots" trend. If you recall, Fairport Convention is well known for dropping the Band's Music From Big Pink album as their major reason for dropping folk rock covers and originals and dived into reinterpreting traditional British folk music and marry it with rock. The Band actually wrote their own material, so I'm not sure how that relates. LOL.
But the point is that everyone was pointing a finger at someone. An example would be that some of the British music press like NME or MM saying that the Beatles dropped studio psychedelia for the more straight up rock, at times, that was recorded for the White Album. And everyone else, like The Rolling Stones, followed the trend.
So I guess that now it's down to either The White Album or Shine On Brightly for starting this back to "Real" rock trend, as both came out in 1968. And that's all I can remember! Such a loss.
Last edited by StevegSr; 01-21-2016 at 04:02 PM. Reason: s
To be or not to be? That is the point. - Harry Nilsson.
It seems to me that Shine on Brightly came out so soon after Music from Big Pink that it's unlikely that Procol had time to be influenced by the Band. As for the reverse, Robbie Robertson vehemently denied any Procol influence.
You are correct on both counts Mister Triscuits. These stories were usually dreamed up in the music press...as I remember.
To be or not to be? That is the point. - Harry Nilsson.
It's the 'roots/blues' side of the band which hasn't aged so well for me. 'Wish Me Well' on here, and also things like 'Juicy John Pink' and 'Crucifixion Lane' on the next one. That's the only gripe I have with these albums, which are otherwise magnificent.
Yes!
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