The Kinks. Their Arista period has its ups and downs, but getting them to do their own take on hard rock was the right idea after the concept years.Originally Posted by GuitarGeek
As for GTR, it was a pretty obvious piggyback on the success of Asia and 90125. But the formula was played out by them.
We can think Derek Schilman for a lot of the AOR and the hair metal that plagued this period.
I'm trying to think, wasn't Derek that gave the world Winger ? Talk about serious artist development. John Hammond would be proud.
Actually, much of the old AOR was onto the wane-- even that awful journey album "raised on radio" Sold poorly compared to the early 80s stuff.
Something happened between 1983 and 1986 that took the Luster off the old AOR.
Yes waited too long to follow up 901 Top 40. By 1986 the AOR momentum was gone as The hair metal scene pick up the slack .
Not sure, but he certainly did Bon Jovi.
Winger was really a pretty good band. The only real downside to them was the fairly generic sound of Kip's vocals, to me. The songs were mostly pretty good, especially for the genre, and the players of course were way above average- I mean, Rod F*ing Morgenstein! I think most of the hate is directly due to Beavis and ButtheadThey were floating around with bands like Honeymoon Suite- bands with solid musical pedigrees that were trying to be commercial and make some $$
Spot-on.Winger was really a pretty good band. The only real downside to them was the fairly generic sound of Kip's vocals, to me. The songs were mostly pretty good, especially for the genre, and the players of course were way above average- I mean, Rod F*ing Morgenstein! I think most of the hate is directly due to Beavis and Butthead
Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally
Ray Shulman on the other hand gave us 'The Sundays'. Well, he produced their first album anyway. I'll take any Sundays song over the entire Bon Jovi catalog.
I can't really stand Bon Jovi, but it's because he sounds like Springsteen and I don't like Bruce. (I do like Dire Straits' Making Movies album. For me that's the best thing in that general mold that I've heard.)
Agreed. On all counts.
Yah, Mark Knopfler is essentially a listenable version of that sort of music, made by an excellent, first-rate musician.
Imagine that, a "singer-songwriter" who is actually a musician. Now that's progress.
Just finished reading Clive's book.. very good for those interested.. he tells the "inside" story for sure.. He kinda explains how he maximized the commercial artist to make up for the artists who he knew weren't going to sell millions.. Happy The Man obviously fell into this camp.. with that said.. they didn't get anyone interested in the 3rd release so Clive must have drawn the line at 2..
Me too.
Does he mention anything about Al Stewart? Al & Clive did not have a happy relationship. Creative & fiscal differences. Al couldn't wait to jump ship.
I've got a bike you can ride it if you like
For awhile Al S. talked in every interview about how terrible he thought "Song on the Radio" was. Though it seemed to me he made far more commercialized albums just after leaving Arista.
I quite like the GTR album. Some of that positive feeling may be nostalgia based, but I listened to it again recently and still enjoyed it. I think part of the problem the naysayers have with the album is that they were hoping for more of a full blown prog album. When the album was released, I didn't expect that to be the case and it probably helped me to not be tremendously disappointed. GTR was pretty much exactly what I expected in the mid 80's music scene., Max Bacon's vocals took some getting used to, but the guy really does have a powerful voice all things considered.
I remember that the Squackett album received some similar feedback a few years back for its more commercial leanings. People make the assumption that when notable prog artists get together to make an album, it has to be a prog fiesta to be good. When you look at GTR and consider the musical climate at the time, the album does have some interesting musical twists. Plus, Hackett and Howe are all over it. That brings to mind why I don't put GTR in a category anywhere near a mess like 'Union'. Like it or not, GTR seems to be the album that Hackett and Howe set out to make and their stamp is abundant on it.
Some people on here are blaming Arista as if they are responsible for the finished product, but there seems to be no proof that either Steve was forced to do anything. They wanted to make a commercially successful rock album at the time and they did. With what was happening with Yes, Asia, The Moody Blues and Genesis in the same era, why not? It made a ton of sense. To date, Steve Hackett has never again received as much radio and TV exposure as GTR gave him. I love Steve Hackett's music, but this notion that he abhors commercial success is just wrong. Steve would love to have more radio play and/or a hit song. He has stated that he has no issue with the idea and he has made attempted more commercial albums other than just GTR.
^I'm not sure anyone here has claimed Steve abhorred commercial success! What he did abhor was the corporate politics that came with this project...as I said, he didn't hang around.
Last edited by JJ88; 07-07-2015 at 02:16 PM.
I agree on why Steve left and posted the exact same sentiment earlier in this very thread. That said, there have been comments made quite a few times on PE that Steve left GTR because of dissatisfaction with the album and it's commercial aspects.
I don't have a problem with the album not being "prog" enough. In fact I think the writing is mostly pretty good, although I think that When The Heart Rules The Mind is a bland, dull, hackneyed attempt at rewriting and Asia song. What I don't like is the limp, mushy production, the lack of balls in the ryhthm section and what I personally percieve as a technically gifted but dull generic vocalist.
I don't want to get into a total defense mode on GTR as I don't think it is a classic by any means and yes, the production is definitely an area of concern. You mention the lack of balls in the rhythm section and I don't hear that as much though Phil Spalding is a talented enough player that he could have been featured more prominently. I just don't know about Jonathan Mover. I am sure he is a good drummer but they went with that 80s drum sound that just didn't do him any favors. Also, I personally wouldn't call Max Bacon dull or even generic. Sometimes when I listen to the album, I wish he was a little more dull as he is sometimes way over the top. He put out a couple of solo albums and also appeared as a guest on a few albums and interestingly, he reigned things in quite a bit as compared to his work on GTR. its almost like Downes or the band told him that bigger was better. He did a good job on the GTR live shows as well.
I was about to write something similar until I read this. To me, Steve Howe on 70s Yes and Asia are almost two different guitarists. I also didn't realize Steve Hackett had been in Genesis so had no expectations for GTR and wasn't aware it was coming out until the hit was on the radio. Overall, I liked it and would sometimes jog to it in high school every so often until I got tired of it -- which didn't take that long.
To compare, I'd rank them:
1. Asia
2. GTR
3. Alpha
4. Astra
With a pretty big gap between the first two and last two
Last edited by yamishogun; 07-07-2015 at 04:40 PM.
It's defnintely not that the guys can't play. I think they are all really good including Bacon. I just would disagree with choices that were made in how to do things and present the overall package. In the end, it wasn't a result that works for me.
If you mean Derek Shulman, I don't think he worked for Arista. I believe he worked for Atlantic and Polygram.
Interesting. I can understand the logic of "Let's get maximize the top 40 potential stuff as much as possible, so we can afford to have artists on the label who won't sell those kind of records", but there's no excuse for forcing the Grateful Dead to work with the likes of Keith Olsen and Gary Lyons. If there was ever a band that wasn't about "maximizing commercial appeal", it was the Dead. And I'm still not sure what Clive thought he was going to get by having them work with a guy who had produced records for UFO, Foreigner, Aerosmith, and Gamma.
Oddly enough, the Dead's big hit record came when Clive finally got out of the way and let the band make a record with a producer of their choosing, someone who hadn't produced hit records for other bands. Of course, one could argue that was MTV that made Touch of Grey such a big hit. One wonders if that disco version of Dancing In The Streets would have been similarly big if MTV had existed in 1977.
You've obviously never heard the couple solo records he made just before GTR. Well, not Bay Of Kings, I'm not talking about the acoustic record, I'm talking about the "rock" records, specifically Cured and Highly Strung. You're going to seriously tell me stuff like Hope I Don't Wake (which sounds like sitcom theme music to my ears) and Cell 151 weren't written with airplay in mind?
Yet that was produced by Lowell George, who you'd think would've been just the guy to get a more creative album out of the Dead.
So nothing new but three bonus studio tracks then?
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