What makes a song a "Prog Epic" to you?

[Squids]

I saw this brought up in the Sherwood mixes Yes thread and thought it deserved it's own topic (not that it hasn't been discussed on PE before but... a fresh take on it?)

So what do you think makes a song a "Prog Epic"? Is it the length of the track? (Probably). What's the cut off? Anything over 10 minutes? Haha.

Do you prefer epics to medium length songs? I'm sure it depends from song to song, band to band etc. But you might as well share what epics you like or don't like and why. Could be an interesting topic of discussion. Yes had apparently just mentioned there wouldn't be any "epic" tracks on their upcoming album. They did have a longer form "suite" on Fly From Here. Back in the day they did epics like "Awaken" and "Gates of Delirium". Various modern Prog bands do "epic length" tracks too. What do you think of them?

[Sputnik]

So what do you think makes a song a "Prog Epic"?

For me, length is a factor, but not the sole determinant. For example, I think On the Silent Wings of Freedom is pretty epic, and that is like 8 minutes. I think Zeppelin's Kashmir is pretty epic too, though I don't personally count it as "Prog." I’m not sure I’d classify To Be Over as an “epic," though, and that is in roughly the same general length.

For me, the determinant of an "epic" is the lyrics or lyrical themes, and the way those themes are presented in the context of the music. If the scale is “big” on both counts, then it is epic to me, though length often trumps the themes once it gets over a certain point, say 10 – 12 minutes, but that’s not a hard and fast rule. A 15 minute jam tune is not usually epic in my book.

Do you prefer epics to medium length songs?

I like a mix. I can live without epic tracks, but I like to experience bands stretching out periodically. If they have the motivation and ideas to push a piece into longer territory, that interests me. But it isn’t a must have factor, and it’s not a definitive attribute of “Prog” in my book (though much Prog is also epic).

Various modern Prog bands do "epic length" tracks too. What do you think of them?

It really depends on the band. I’m not a fan of most of the very popular Prog bands take on the epic (SB/TFK for example). I find they mix way too much “AOR” type rock, and the whole “adventure” of the epic is emasculated in the process.

There are lots of modern groups who work in longer form that I do enjoy. Many of them are instrumental, so they are “epic” in length only, and I don’t tend to think about these pieces as “Prog epics,” whether that is accurate or not. A few modern bands come to mind like Kotebel, The Rebel Wheel, Helmet of Gnats, Areknames, who I think have done good bigger scale works. I’d have to scan my collection to identify more.

Generally, though, while I enjoy many modern bands attempts at longer form pieces, I’m not sure anyone has topped the touchstone 70s bands for the quality of longer or epic scale tracks. I think much of this comes from the broad themes these bands were dealing with, and the countercultural forces that were at play in the 70s.

Bill

[DTA]

For me, epics have to be long, generally over 15 minutes. I also like a mix of medium-length songs and epics. I absolutely hate repetition in epics though. The new Transatlantic album has some great parts, but Into The Blue just repeats certain parts for like 2 minutes while gradually increasing intensity to justify its length. I can't stand that. I can't stand long, slow drawn out prog intros/outros and they really make me dislike a song. I just basically cannot stand the current blueprint that Neal Morse uses for epics, so any epic that breaks that mold will usually be appreciated by me.

I like epics that run through a variety of parts, have some repeated themes (but repeated in a different way), have a good balance of instrumental/vocal parts, and have really catchy vocal parts. A modern prog band whose epics I really enjoy lately is Moon Safari. They seem to really know how to make a track interesting throughout a 20+ minute length. I'd love some modern prog epic recommendations though.

[the winter tree]

I think the epic which comes closest to perfection is "Close To The Edge". Thematically, both musical and lyrical, it is everything I feel an epic should be. Many pieces that are deemed "epic", both from 70s and modern ones, are really song "suites" often with little segue ways between songs or musical sections.
I don't find anything wrong with song suites and enjoy many of them. Some "epics" kind of fit in between the above mentioned formats - "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" has musical themes recurring but ends up more of a suite. "Supper's Ready" seems like kind of a synthesis of themes and suite.
"Thick as a Brick", though apparently a parody of epics, is loaded with thematic variations. "Tarkus" is another great epic, though in a few parts it seems like thrown together sections.

As I mentioned in the Sherwood/YES thread, YES's FFH "epic" is really a suite with an overture and a reprise.

I don't think sheer length makes an epic an epic. It's more to do with strong themes both musically and lyrically that take the listener on a unique and thought(and ear) provoking journey.

I really like the Flower Kings, but feel they are stronger on shorter and medium sized pieces.

[Dana5140]

Every Magma song is an epic, and is epic. Just saying. Short, long, does not matter.

[Mikhael]

It has to take me on an unexpected journey, with nice twists and turns. These have to make sense, taken as a whole, and not be glued-together bits. I don't care much about the length, but in order to take me on that journey, it's generally longer than radio single length...

I unfortunately agree with the poster about Transatlantic epics. There's a lot of repeating motifs that just build forever, and after a while I'm at the "Enough already!" point. I feel much the same about the way Yes ends "And You And I" in performance; slow it down, make it a bit grander, but STOP ALREADY... Other than that, I like a lot of what Transatlantic does, but I would cut off some of that droning on forever, and write connecting bits that lead logically from one bit to another, so it isn't such a jarring transition (although occasionally that is what's called for, depending on the song). I think some of that is due to the fact that they write and record in a flurry, and don't take enough time to develop them properly.

[bill g]

A combination of quantity (length) and quality (not repetitious-and full of feeling). To take Genesis, I'd say 'Me and Sarah Jane' has more substance of what makes an epic, at 6 minutes, than 'Fading Lights' at 10 minutes. Combine that substance with length, and you have the making for a great epic. I find a lot of epic quality music among newer bands. 'Ramblin' Sailor' from Advent for example, or 'Garden of Dreams' from the Flower Kings, of course.

[zombywoof]

All prog epics must be at least 22 minutes long, contain 7 - 10 sections, and have at least one movement in 9/8. No exceptions.

But seriously, I don't think prog epics are that necessary. At it's finest, the prog epic should develop naturally and not be there just because it's a requirement. It should also feel coherent and not 'stitched together' like many modern bands do. Does that make sense?

[Squids]

I'm actually working on a longer form song right now in addition to shorter songs (although the shortest seems to be about 5-6 minutes). What I like about writing one is that it offers a chance to take you on a journey and have "movements" to it. It's also a good home for certain parts that might not otherwise have a place in a song. That said, I agree with those of you that say it can't just be a bunch of random ideas strung together to make it all a longer form piece. It has to MOVE you as piece collectively. There's an art to it like anything. Nice when there's a powerful ending to it that gives you an emotional pay off... like Supper's Ready does or Awaken.

[zombywoof]

Yeah, that's the other thing, it needs to feel like a journey and it needs to hang together well and feel complete.

[bill g]

At it's finest, the prog epic should develop naturally and not be there just because it's a requirement. It should also feel coherent and not 'stitched together' like many modern bands do. Does that make sense?

Yep, exactly!

Yeah, that's the other thing, it needs to feel like a journey and it needs to hang together well and feel complete.

That helps too!

[JKL2000]

So what do you think makes a song a "Prog Epic"?

For me, length is a factor, but not the sole determinant. For example, I think On the Silent Wings of Freedom is pretty epic, and that is like 8 minutes. I think Zeppelin's Kashmir is pretty epic too, though I don't personally count it as "Prog." I’m not sure I’d classify To Be Over as an “epic," though, and that is in roughly the same general length.

For me, the determinant of an "epic" is the lyrics or lyrical themes, and the way those themes are presented in the context of the music. If the scale is “big” on both counts, then it is epic to me, though length often trumps the themes once it gets over a certain point, say 10 – 12 minutes, but that’s not a hard and fast rule. A 15 minute jam tune is not usually epic in my book.

Do you prefer epics to medium length songs?

I like a mix. I can live without epic tracks, but I like to experience bands stretching out periodically. If they have the motivation and ideas to push a piece into longer territory, that interests me. But it isn’t a must have factor, and it’s not a definitive attribute of “Prog” in my book (though much Prog is also epic).

Various modern Prog bands do "epic length" tracks too. What do you think of them?

It really depends on the band. I’m not a fan of most of the very popular Prog bands take on the epic (SB/TFK for example). I find they mix way too much “AOR” type rock, and the whole “adventure” of the epic is emasculated in the process.

There are lots of modern groups who work in longer form that I do enjoy. Many of them are instrumental, so they are “epic” in length only, and I don’t tend to think about these pieces as “Prog epics,” whether that is accurate or not. A few modern bands come to mind like Kotebel, The Rebel Wheel, Helmet of Gnats, Areknames, who I think have done good bigger scale works. I’d have to scan my collection to identify more.

Generally, though, while I enjoy many modern bands attempts at longer form pieces, I’m not sure anyone has topped the touchstone 70s bands for the quality of longer or epic scale tracks. I think much of this comes from the broad themes these bands were dealing with, and the countercultural forces that were at play in the 70s.

Bill

Good point that there are instrumental prog epics, and often they have a lesser chance of overstaying their welcome because there's no chance of vocals lacking meaning or being grating. Have to think of some

[zombywoof]

Harold the Barrel is a full blown epic that's under 5 minutes!

[Baribrotzer]

Harold the Barrel is a full blown epic that's under 5 minutes!

I don't agree. To me that's just a not-terribly cohesive single song.

But "Can-Utility and the Coastliners" IS an epic, in my opinion, and a good one. And it's under six minutes.

[Sputnik]

I don't agree. To me that's just a not-terribly cohesive single song.

I agree with you that Harold isn't an "epic" per se. It tells a story, but it has no larger scale theme at play. But I don't agree with you that the song is not cohesive. In fact I think it's a masterpiece of cohesion. What do you find "not-terribly cohesive" about it?

But "Can-Utility and the Coastliners" IS an epic, in my opinion, and a good one. And it's under six minutes.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Though I'd have to give the song a fresh spin and close inspection of the lyrics to say for sure.

Bill

[zombywoof]

I don't agree. To me that's just a not-terribly cohesive single song.

But "Can-Utility and the Coastliners" IS an epic, in my opinion, and a good one. And it's under six minutes.

I'm always surprised when people say they don't like Harold. It is one of my favorite Genesis songs, if not my favorite. Can Utility is fantastic too.

[Vic2012]

For me it's gotta be 12-15 minutes at least, lot's of Hammond organ, lot's of dynamics, highs and lows, great vocals, lot's of adventure, twists and turns, and blah blah blah

[No Pride]

Not much to add that hasn't been said already. I agree that it should be at least 15 minutes long and should be cohesive enough to be like a well written novel or screenplay.

Though it's hugely popular here (and though Genesis may be my all time favorite prog band), I don't consider "Supper's Ready" to be a great epic. It's more like a suite at best. As far as "classic" epics from the '70s go, my favorite might be "Gates of Delirium." And among the more modern prog epics, they are "Ramblin' Sailor" (Advent) and "Through and Through" (Underground Railroad).

It bothers me slightly that modern prog bands often seem to feel obliged to include an epic on practically every album. It's a hard thing to successfully accomplish and many a composer that can write a strong 7-10 minute piece fails at it imo. The stuff I write generally goes through some twists and turns, but I've never even dreamt of writing an epic. A man has to know his limitations.

[Digital_Man]

It's kind of subjective. Where do we make the cut off? That's a good question. Is "Heart of the Sunrise" an epic? How about "Cinema Show?" It's hard to say. Personally I think it's a term that should be used somewhat sparingly. I agree with the poster who said they should be at least 15 minutes(as a general rule anyway). So with that in mind "Awaken" is an epic but not "in the court of the Crimson King." "In the wake of Poseidon"(songs for both of these)sounds more epic to my ears. However, there is something to be said about the way a piece is structured and the flow of it. Usually it is the longer tracks that allow for multiple parts that give it that epic like quality. I have heard it said that "In held twas in I" was the first prog epic. I can't really disagree with that because it had many different sections plus it was 18 minutes long(not to mention pre dating "Supper's Ready" and "Close to the Edge" by four years.

[BobM]

- thematic material
- ear worm inducing
- of a certain minimum length
- high and low dynamics
- big finish
- memorable
- gets it's own discussion thread started at PE

[Facelift]

1) It must be prog.

2) It must be epic

The first part is self-explanatory. As for the second part, I think "epic" means thematic material (therefore, there must be some vocals) of a certain length. I would, however, hesitate to say a specific minimum. For instance, I would say that the extent to which there are multiple parts would permit a shorter length. Rush's Natural Science, for example, is definitely a prog epic IMO, despite being only nine minutes. It is, perhaps, the only song less than ten minutes that I consider to be a prog epic (though I'd have to really think about this to be sure), but I think it definitely falls into that category. However, there are other prog songs with vocals in the ten minute range that I don't think of as being prog epics - any of Gong's 10+ minute tracks, for example (despite the albums as wholes being highly conceptual).

I would also say that prog epics - at least, when I think of them - have minimal improvised sections. I don't think that Soft Machine's Moon in June is an epic, for example.

Just some thoughts.

[chalkpie]

1) Dudes playing it must wear capes and sequenced shirts.

2) Lyrics have to be about Unicorns, Rainbows, Stars, or some combination thereof.

3) The fog machines have to be set to 'High'.

4) All the audience members have to be baked.

5) My wife has to hate it.

[Mick]

OK, maybe my personal opinion is a little biased, but I agree that "Close to the Edge" certainly became a benchmark of 70s Prog Epics. About that same time, Nektar released Remember the Future (our third "epic" together after JttCotE & Tab) then we later proceeded to compose Recycled.
I agree an epic should tell a story, have movements and should flow from beginning to end with reasonable contrasts throughout to keep the listener expecting more. A "jam" may evolve into an epic, but it should only be a foundation, not the finished product.
BTW, one of my ideas on JttCotE was borrowed from the Moody Blues "A Room with four doors", as in 1970, it was a good example of "movements" within a song. Most Moodies albums were "epic" before the seventies.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Good point that there are instrumental prog epics, and often they have a lesser chance of overstaying their welcome because there's no chance of vocals lacking meaning or being grating. Have to think of some

Celebration Suite by Return To Forever is one of my favorite instrumental Prog epics.

For me a Prog epic needs to have movements that take one on a journey through different moods. Length is not a factor.

[Poisoned Youth]

It has to take me on an unexpected journey, with nice twists and turns. These have to make sense, taken as a whole, and not be glued-together bits. I don't care much about the length, but in order to take me on that journey, it's generally longer than radio single length...

All this "journey" stuff I just can't seem to relate. I also can't relate to the twists and turns thing or the "novel" concept. Some of my favorite longer tracks across genres simply settle into a groove and stay there.

For me, it's pretty simple. A well-crafted epic, or lengthier track, has to do for me what a great song of 4-6 minutes would do: when it's over, I want to hear it again. It doesn't drag on, it's over before you know it.