Phil Collins "people used to think I was musical evil"

[Kim Olesen]

Nobody 'ruined' Genesis. They were always a great band who simply didn't always write and record the same kind of music.

This!!!!

[Vic2012]

It's funny how often people use the word 'blame' - as though something terrible happened that someone should answer for.

....and thus.

That was a great post Progatron. If there's ever a book written about Internet Prog Forum Geeks there should be a chapter titled "Phil Collins Ruined Genesis" or "Phil Collins On Trial For Sins Against Humanity."

[gregory]

Genesis made some great music in the 80s.

Great must be a big word here. IMO.

[Rufus]

Genesis & Phil Collins certainly didn't make great music in the 80's , Duke excepted ! They made some passable 'pop' music & that's it !

[Scott Bails]

I'd still consider things like "Domino" and "Fading Lights" among the best songs in their career.

[adewolf]

For me Phil is first and formost a drummer. The rest of it is not really him, IMHO. After Selling England By The Pound, Genesis lost any interesting music for me. While he was quite good in the 70's in Genesis, I will always remember his work with Brand-X.

[Rufus]

I'd still consider things like "Domino" and "Fading Lights" among the best songs in their career.

Wow !!! controvertial statement!! If you'd have said the Duke suite i would have agreed with you .

Duke is the only 80"s album i havn't sold on . I did give the others a chance . I have kept the first three M&TM`s albums & will most likely buy the 30th anniversay edition of 'The Living Years'. I would probably put that down to Paul Carrack's voice though as I could listen to him sing anything .Horses for courses I guess !

[polmico]

We were desperate for folks who still Mastered their musical instruments and could craft songs.

That old canard is worse than Phil ruined Genesis. Plenty of musical punk/new-wave played by talented musicians.

For me, Phil Collins "jumped the shark" when he appeared on Miami Vice. Those big, baggy pants we a sight to behold.

ZappaPay.jpg

[Progatron]

Great must be a big word here. IMO.

Well, I certainly have enjoyed a lot of those tunes for years now. I think the instrumental section of "Tonight Tonight Tonight", for one example, has a lot of mood to it, and I always listen intently to it. The only difference I can see between that and something like "The Cinema Show" is that the actual playing is not as complex, but complexity does not necessarily equal "better". Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, yes I do like "The Cinema Show" better. But that shouldn't - and doesn't - matter. There remains a segment of prog fans who essentially refuse to like 'simpler' music (especially with regards to Genesis for some reason), as though it's less worthy. Hey, I love a steak and lobster dinner, but I also love a good PB&J sandwich and they both have their place.

Genesis & Phil Collins certainly didn't make great music in the 80's , Duke excepted ! They made some passable 'pop' music & that's it !

Ahhh, the ol' "Your opinion is incorrect" approach. Always goes over a storm.

My main criticism of those 80s/90s albums is their inclusion of some below-par material on the albums when they had good songs from the same sessions that were left languishing on B-sides and EPs. See 'You Might Recall', 'Feeding The Fire', 'Do The Neurotic', 'On The Shoreline', 'Evidence Of Autumn'...Including these would arguably have given the relevant albums a different flavour.

I cannot understand how somebody can like Mike and the Mechanics and not like the Genesis albums of the same period. M&TMs have had some good singles but fall prey to mid-tempo blandness far too often IMHO. I'd say that is the most 'commercial' project any of them have ever done, yet Phil always gets the criticism.

Completely agree. It's fairly common opinion around here I think that Genesis made some unpopular decisions with regards to b-sides. Some of them, including the ones you mention, are more than worthy of being on their respective albums. "You Might Recall" is one I often cite when discussing these because it was actually left off in favour of "Who Dunnit?", which is hard to believe, but those were the times. I've always loved "Submarine" as well, which would have made a beautiful closing track on the album.

I also scratch my head when hearing someone is such a fan of M&TM but not the Genesis music of the same period. Very strange, but then when you examine people's tastes, they often can be.

[polmico]

Even KC's 80's output is not typical prog and is much more commercial sounding(compared to their earlier stuff).

And if it were more widely reported how much Belew wanted to be seen as a front man, wanted to be a pop star, then he might get slagged like Collins does. The band nearly broke up after Beat (Fripp walked out before the album was done and no one knew if he was coming back). Belew wanted "Heartbeat" to be a hit single. What if it had been? Would the second side of ToaPP (which sort of killed any notion that KC was a commercial, pop/prog band) have happened if "Heartbeat" had been played on MTV like "Owner of a Lonely Heart" or "That's All" were?

[Rufus]

[QUOTE=Progatron;139863]Well, I certainly have enjoyed a lot of those tunes for years now. I think the instrumental section of "Tonight Tonight Tonight", for one example, has a lot of mood to it, and I always listen intently to it. The only difference I can see between that and something like "The Cinema Show" is that the actual playing is not as complex, but complexity does not necessarily equal "better". Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, yes I do like "The Cinema Show" better. But that shouldn't - and doesn't - matter. There remains a segment of prog fans who essentially refuse to like 'simpler' music (especially with regards to Genesis for some reason),/QUOTE]

Oh dear , now people are comparing Tonight Tonight Tonight with The Cinema Show ! Someone call the Shrink , I'm outa here !

[trurl]

I think Mama is one of the best songs Genesis did (the "ha-ha" bits notwithstanding) and it's one of the simplest. It's one of the best slow-burn build songs ever imho. Tonight Tonight Tonight is a slightly more conventional take on the same general style. I wouldn't exactly compare it to Cinema Show but it's a really good song.

[Progatron]

I think Mama is one of the best songs Genesis did (the "ha-ha" bits notwithstanding) and it's one of the simplest. It's one of the best slow-burn build songs ever imho.

I love "Mama" (including the ha-has ). Another strong mood piece, and Phil's vocals are intense.. must have killed him live. I remember him saying he had to tune down "I Don't Care Anymore" or it would have shredded his voice live. "Home By The Sea" was another effective piece from that same album.

[revporl]

Oh you can blame or attribute the change in Genesis to any number of factors, however Genesis without PG was not nearly as innovative, and did more mimicking of previous music. Gabriel took a innovative approach.

I don't think that's true at all. I think Dukes blend of prog and soul and Acabab's weird stripped down synth rock are far more interesting than most of the Gabriel canon. They were far more diverse musically in the late 70's going into the early 80's than they were in the early 70's. I find the first few albums up to Selling England sound a bit samey, some great tunes, but sonically and arrangement-wise a bit one dimensional (and PG's whimsy gets on my nerves!). They diversified as they matured. They are one of my very favourite bands ever, but I would say 76-82 was the peak rather than the early stuff most people on here are into.

Really agree with the point about the b sides of singles being some of their best stuff btw

[Kim Olesen]

I'd still consider things like "Domino" and "Fading Lights" among the best songs in their career.

Agreed. And cool enough that some people don't like pop music. But i like pop music just as much as prog! And i enjoy Genesis in their pop phase just as much. But the relentless Phil bashing, Genesis post Duke bashing is getting really really old!!!!

[N_Singh]

there's good pop music and then there's "corporate vying for market share against Lionel Ritchie" pop music.

All three were equally culpable in destroying this band--no need to single out PC.

And Tonight Tonight Tonight mentioned in the sentence with Cinema Show??????????????? Wow.

[Rufus]

there's good pop music and then there's "corporate vying for market share against Lionel Ritchie" pop music.

All three were equally culpable in destroying this band--no need to single out PC.

And Tonight Tonight Tonight mentioned in the sentence with Cinema Show??????????????? Wow.

THIS !

[ronmac]

People do seem to forget about Mike + The Mechanics.

Until people like you keep reminding us.

[Kim Olesen]

All three were equally culpable in destroying this band--no need to single out PC.

Destroyed for you. Not for me!!!

[Progatron]

All three were equally culpable in destroying this band

LOL! The band was 'destroyed'? This is a combination sad/hilarious viewpoint.

THIS !

Just making sure we all know you haven't changed your mind in the last ten minutes, or...?

[Stickleback]

I'm outa here !

Promise?

[expresso]

Genesis & Phil Collins certainly didn't make great music in the 80's , Duke excepted ! They made some passable 'pop' music & that's it !

I agree with that. Duke is their last great album imo. They had some good and enjoyable moments after that, but nothing extraordinary.

It wasn't Collins' fault that Genesis' approach to music changed. Banks and Rutherford were just as responsible for that and their personal albums can prove that.

[zombywoof]

I'm no Phil Collins fan by any means (aside from his drum work), but you can't really fault a guy for wanting to be successful.

[JIF]

It's funny how often people use the word 'blame' - as though something terrible happened that someone should answer for. Nobody 'ruined' Genesis. They were always a great band who simply didn't always write and record the same kind of music. Genesis made some great music in the 80s. I prefer the 70s stuff myself (or what I like to call the 'Hackett years') but I get a lot of enjoyment out of (most of) the material on these albums that so many people slam. Hey, I don't like "Illegal Alien" either. But is it really so strange that they wrote a short, humorous song with silly lyrics? They did that in 1971 too with "Harold The Barrel". I like that one better, but how many of us would even listen to it if it wasn't on such a grand, heralded classic as Nursery Cryme?

Phil's comment about how you can't get Tony Banks to do something he doesn't want to do is worth mentioning a second time because I think that's probably quite accurate. Phil didn't just waltz into rehearsal one day and say "Here's how it's gonna be from now on". There was a flow and direction around the dawn of the 1980s that affected most bands. Trevor Rabin took a lot of heat for this kind of thing too, for example, but then he was never a household name and on tabloid pages, so he doesn't get the worldwide finger-pointing.

Phil was an extremely talented and natural musician. He's responsible for SO much music that I love, with Genesis, with Brand X, and yes, solo too. Because he also happened to record other songs that I don't care for so much does not take away the music I do care for.

Peter Gabriel did "Sledgehammer", Mike (and the Mechanics) did "All I Need Is A Miracle", Tony Banks did "This Is Love", Steve Hackett did "Hope I Don't Wake". And all the while Genesis - with Phil - were recording and touring songs like "Domino", "The Brazilian", "Home By The Sea".... if those are 'commercial sell-outs', I'll eat my hat!

I have made the same point several times. I think that Genesis started to write more pop songs, because they got better at it. I remember a Phil interview saying that the band always wrote short songs, but maybe no one thought that those short songs were any good. So, they didn't get recognized.

I'd still consider things like "Domino" and "Fading Lights" among the best songs in their career.

Speaking of Fading Lights, my dad and grandma brought me We Can't Dance for Christmas the year it came out. For some strange reason, I never listened to it. I was 9 then, so I didn't know about prog then. I heard Fading Lights many years later when I bought the Genesis Songbook DVD many years later, and the song brought tears to my eyes. Especially since, in that part of the DVD, the band were talking about breaking up and moving on while images of their distant past were being shown.

Regrettably I remember playing down my enjoyment of the later Genesis, even though it was that I got into first (because I heard it first). I stopped when I listened to 'Invisible Touch' not long after the reunion tour announcement and found that, in spite of my dislike of the syn-drums, I couldn't argue with the material (save 'Anything She Does' which I've always hated) and still genuinely enjoyed it. Even the title track I think is a well-crafted song.

My main criticism of those 80s/90s albums is their inclusion of some below-par material on the albums when they had good songs from the same sessions that were left languishing on B-sides and EPs. See 'You Might Recall', 'Feeding The Fire', 'Do The Neurotic', 'On The Shoreline', 'Evidence Of Autumn'...Including these would arguably have given the relevant albums a different flavour.

I cannot understand how somebody can like Mike and the Mechanics and not like the Genesis albums of the same period. M&TMs have had some good singles but fall prey to mid-tempo blandness far too often IMHO. I'd say that is the most 'commercial' project any of them have ever done, yet Phil always gets the criticism.

Nothing 'controversial' about loving 'Fading Lights', I think that's a beautiful piece of work with their best instrumental workout in years.

I think that Rhino Records should've released the Genesis CDs with the B-sides as bonus tracks, instead of doing this CD/DVD combos.

[QUOTE=Rufus;139870]

Well, I certainly have enjoyed a lot of those tunes for years now. I think the instrumental section of "Tonight Tonight Tonight", for one example, has a lot of mood to it, and I always listen intently to it. The only difference I can see between that and something like "The Cinema Show" is that the actual playing is not as complex, but complexity does not necessarily equal "better". Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, yes I do like "The Cinema Show" better. But that shouldn't - and doesn't - matter. There remains a segment of prog fans who essentially refuse to like 'simpler' music (especially with regards to Genesis for some reason),/QUOTE]

Oh dear , now people are comparing Tonight Tonight Tonight with The Cinema Show ! Someone call the Shrink , I'm outa here !

What's wrong with people comparing The Cinema Show with Tonight Tonight Tonight? They are epics that contain a bit of instrumental wanking. Oh no, I just realized that Rufus will now have to respond, thus going back on his word of not saying anything more. In fact, can we ban Rufus from all threads that mention Phil Collins? He just sounds like a broken record. He get it, Rufus. You're jealous of Phil, because he can act, sing, play drums, play keyboards, and write.

I love "Mama" (including the ha-has ). Another strong mood piece, and Phil's vocals are intense.. must have killed him live. I remember him saying he had to tune down "I Don't Care Anymore" or it would have shredded his voice live. "Home By The Sea" was another effective piece from that same album.

I love everything about Mama. Those ha-has scare the crap out of me.

Agreed. And cool enough that some people don't like pop music. But i like pop music just as much as prog! And i enjoy Genesis in their pop phase just as much. But the relentless Phil bashing, Genesis post Duke bashing is getting really really old!!!!

This!!

Promise?

[JIF]

I'm no Phil Collins fan by any means (aside from his drum work), but you can't really fault a guy for wanting to be successful.

I agree, especially since Phil has all those ex-wife. Without his success, they would have left him flat broke.