King Crimson - the definitive remix/remasters?

[Jerjo]

I am biting the bullet and looking to replace some old vinyl and crappy MP3s of Court of the Crimson King, In the Wake of Poseidon, and Larks' Tongues in Aspic. But sweet mercy, how many reissues and versions can three albums have?! What a bewildering mess. So please, give me your two cents on which version of these three I should seek out on CD. I don't need extravagant box sets, just a one or two disc version is fine. I'd just like to know what consensus can be brought on this mess of a catalog.

[zravkapt]

ITCHCOCK - The 40th anniversary I think...the one before the Wilson remix.

Poseidon - Not sure really, I guess the 30th anniversary edition

LTIA - 30th ann. ed.

[Dave (in MA)]

ITCHCOCK

There's an ointment for that.

[mellotron storm]

There's an ointment for that.

[walt]

ITCHCOCK .

Loved his movies.North By Northwest and Rear Window may be my faves.

[philsunset]

Loved his movies.North By Northwest and Rear Window may be my faves.

[tormato]

I'm pleased with my recent reissues by SW, the 5.1 is a real plus if you have a setup for that. Even if you don't, the uncompressed 2-channel DVD-A is still quite good on stereo. The 2 disc CD/DVD sets aren't that pricey either, IMHO. Otherwise, I never had issue with the 30th anniversary ones I had.

[JeffCarney]

I am biting the bullet and looking to replace some old vinyl and crappy MP3s of Court of the Crimson King, In the Wake of Poseidon, and Larks' Tongues in Aspic. But sweet mercy, how many reissues and versions can three albums have?! What a bewildering mess. So please, give me your two cents on which version of these three I should seek out on CD. I don't need extravagant box sets, just a one or two disc version is fine. I'd just like to know what consensus can be brought on this mess of a catalog.

There aren't really that many. It can just look that way on a place like Amazon.

Basically, you have this for Crimson on CD:

Original (Circa 1987)
"Definitive Edition" (1989)
30th (1999)
40th (2009)

Given your comments, I would just get the 30ths if you just want good sounding versions of the original mixes. If you are curious about the Steven Wilson remixes, you could get the 40ths, which do include the 30ths as well as various bonus material. The 30ths you can probably buy for 8-10 dollars each. The Wilson 40th 2CD sets will probably be 18-20 dollars each.

[notallwhowander]

There aren't really that many. It can just look that way on a place like Amazon.

Basically, you have this for Crimson on CD:

Original (Circa 1987)
"Definitive Edition" (1989)
30th (1999)
40th (2009)

Given your comments, I would just get the 30ths if you just want good sounding versions of the original mixes. If you are curious about the Steven Wilson remixes, you could get the 40ths, which do include the 30ths as well as various bonus material. The 30ths you can probably buy for 8-10 dollars each. The Wilson 40th 2CD sets will probably be 18-20 dollars each.

This is pretty sound advice. I've had the 30ths since they came out and have really enjoyed them. They won't disappoint. Consequently, I haven't been in a rush to get the 40ths, though I do have LTiA. The Wilson mix is different. I enjoy it, but there's definitely stuff going on that mark it out as its own thing, tricks that mark it as a modern production, things that could really only be done on a computer. It's all pretty subtle of course. It the same album and all, I'd just hesitate to call it definitive. I more think of the mix as an alternative.

[Akustika]

Given your comments, I would just get the 30ths if you just want good sounding versions of the original mixes. If you are curious about the Steven Wilson remixes, you could get the 40ths, which do include the 30ths as well as various bonus material. The 30ths you can probably buy for 8-10 dollars each. The Wilson 40th 2CD sets will probably be 18-20 dollars each.

Is there a simple way to extract the 30ths off the (40th) DVD's and save them as FLACs, WAVs or mp3's? The software I have seems to just pull off the 5.1 tracks, but not remainder of the bonus DVD material.

[jkelman]

Is there a simple way to extract the 30ths off the (40th) DVD's and save them as FLACs, WAVs or mp3's? The software I have seems to just pull off the 5.1 tracks, but not remainder of the bonus DVD material.

One word: Xilisoft.

[jcarr73729]

Is there a simple way to extract the 30ths off the (40th) DVD's and save them as FLACs, WAVs or mp3's? The software I have seems to just pull off the 5.1 tracks, but not remainder of the bonus DVD material.

I've always used DVD-Audio-Explorer (Google it at Video Help) to extract the WAV files off my KC DVDs. It's no longer developed. I guess it does all it needs to. Zip files can be downloaded at Video Help. Easy to use. You can convert to FLAC or whatever after DVD-A-E has extracted.

[Jerjo]

Yeah, I started at LaserCD and then brought up Amazon in another tab. All the options gave me a headache. I'm easily confused on a Friday.

[arturs]

I just bought the 40th edition of LTIA (2 disc). And I'm surprised by how much I dislike the new stereo mix. I don't usually get worked up about this mix or that mix, the essence of the music is what matters. But Steven Wilson has really sucked the life out of the thing, especially LTIA 1. To me the new mix sounds like some Berklee students playing the piece perfectly note-for-note but really really afraid to mess up. Not so big a deal on the other tracks.

So I strongly prefer the 30th, or even the "definitive ed". I would be interested in what others think... But here's the rub: with the 40th, you get the full original Beat Club video (4o minutes), which is absolutely essential. So you may want to buy them both. The 40th DVD does have the 30th ed. on it, but only in DVD audio.

[JeffCarney]

I just bought the 40th edition of LTIA (2 disc). And I'm surprised by how much I dislike the new stereo mix. I don't usually get worked up about this mix or that mix, the essence of the music is what matters. But Steven Wilson has really sucked the life out of the thing, especially LTIA 1. To me the new mix sounds like some Berklee students playing the piece perfectly note-for-note but really really afraid to mess up. Not so big a deal on the other tracks.

So I strongly prefer the 30th, or even the "definitive ed". I would be interested in what others think... But here's the rub: with the 40th, you get the full original Beat Club video (4o minutes), which is absolutely essential. So you may want to buy them both. The 40th DVD does have the 30th ed. on it, but only in DVD audio.

And on the 40ths, what's weird about the inclusion of the 24/96 DVD versions of the 30ths is that there is apparently no hi-res information on them at all. I have not done this test myself but have read a report from someone who did and found that basically all the 24/96 30ths are just redbook anyway. Pretty sure this was the case for all of them but I believe this was before Larks was finished, so ...

[tormato]

Steven Wilson has really sucked the life out of the thing, especially LTIA 1. To me the new mix sounds like some Berklee students playing the piece perfectly note-for-note but really really afraid to mess up.

What does this even mean? Does SW have a wayback machine and went back in time to force them to play it differently or did you mistakenly listen to the LTIA2 cover Dream Theater did a few years back?

[Kim Olesen]

I just bought the 40th edition of LTIA (2 disc). And I'm surprised by how much I dislike the new stereo mix. I don't usually get worked up about this mix or that mix, the essence of the music is what matters. But Steven Wilson has really sucked the life out of the thing, especially LTIA 1. To me the new mix sounds like some Berklee students playing the piece perfectly note-for-note but really really afraid to mess up. Not so big a deal on the other tracks.

So I strongly prefer the 30th, or even the "definitive ed". I would be interested in what others think... But here's the rub: with the 40th, you get the full original Beat Club video (4o minutes), which is absolutely essential. So you may want to buy them both. The 40th DVD does have the 30th ed. on it, but only in DVD audio.

Horses for courses. I find the original mix almost unlistenable in any form. Only with the Wilson Remix have i been able to enjoy LTIA fully.

[arturs]

Horses for courses. I find the original mix almost unlistenable in any form. Only with the Wilson Remix have i been able to enjoy LTIA fully.

What exactly did you not like about the original mix? Why unlistenable? What does the SW mix do to improve the sound for you? I do not mean to criticize but I am interested in how we hear things so differently...

[Kim Olesen]

What exactly did you not like about the original mix? Why unlistenable? What does the SW mix do to improve the sound for you? I do not mean to criticize but I am interested in how we hear things so differently...

No offense taken don't worry about that :-)

I dislike the way everything has a layer of distortion over it on the original mix. It makes the drums sound like cartbox cases and takes all life (that i suspected was on the tape but never made it through in the original mix) out of the instruments. The drums and vocals in particular. Steve Wilsons mix makes the instruments breathe. It does not sound like a band in an all too small room playing on a pa with the speakers blown. But you know, i'm really very particular about what i like and dislike in productions. This comes from having produced and co-produced albums myself. I think this makes me able to hear what could have been done in productions. I can hear the unrealised potential. And that's how i hear LTIA. SW brought out the potential of what was committed to tape. The original mix engineer failed to do that.

But i fully respect that some people would say don't mess with the original. AND i do find some remixes unnesesary. A Trick Of The Tail and Selling England By The Pound to name some.

[Frumious B]

In The Court... was also reissued again in 2004 when the original master tape finally turned up again so you have a 1999 mastering and a 2004 mastering for that one title.

[JeffCarney]

In The Court... was also reissued again in 2004 when the original master tape finally turned up again so you have a 1999 mastering and a 2004 mastering for that one title.

Good point. The "Original Master Edition."

I prefer the 30th to this, and the fact that only one side of the 30th was from the master tape doesn't bother me. The OME is just too damned bright, IMO.

[Romerovm]

Good point. The "Original Master Edition."

I prefer the 30th to this, and the fact that only one side of the 30th was from the master tape doesn't bother me. The OME is just too damned bright, IMO.

Hi Jeff,

I thought you were a fan of the early Japanese black triangle ones?

[zravkapt]

In The Court... was also reissued again in 2004 when the original master tape finally turned up again so you have a 1999 mastering and a 2004 mastering for that one title.

That was the version I was thinking of, the first one made from the original masters.

[arturs]

^^^ I'm just amazed how different the feel of re-mixed LTIA1 is, compared to the original. The new SW mix sounds sterile. It is largely devoid of the tension and the unhinged excitement that I feel/hear every time I listen to the original mix. My reference to the Berklee students was an analogy to illustrate that.

I have no idea how/why a different mix can change the feel of a piece of music so much. It's fascinating actually, how much the mixing matters. I would have never believed it until I heard it.

[JeffCarney]

I have no idea how/why a different mix can change the feel of a piece of music so much. It's fascinating actually, how much the mixing matters. I would have never believed it until I heard it.

I've discussed this before but what Wilson does with these remixes is analogous to a modern, "Pro-Tools" kind of mix. Many people rave about the "clarity" but what has been a common theme in his work for me is a sterile, dry as a bone sound that comes from digital remixing. I hear everything clearer but it's irrelevant to me, because the overall feel and excitement in the music are missing.

The only thing I can figure as to why people go for his work is that many have become so used to the sound of digital that taking it a few steps further doesn't seem to phase them. But you simply cannot compare an analog mix that was transferred to digital once for CD and an analog mix where every single track was turned into a digital file, where all the reverb moves on the analog master mix are now gone, and then each track is remixed on computer and finally transferred to CD. It is simply pushing the limits of digital over the edge, IMO.

I suspect that people will find the sound of Wilson's remixes so dated 10-20 years from now that they will be available for 5 cents on the dollar all over Amazon and eBay. But, I could certainly be wrong.