King Crimson - the definitive remix/remasters?

[Jerjo]

I am biting the bullet and looking to replace some old vinyl and crappy MP3s of Court of the Crimson King, In the Wake of Poseidon, and Larks' Tongues in Aspic. But sweet mercy, how many reissues and versions can three albums have?! What a bewildering mess. So please, give me your two cents on which version of these three I should seek out on CD. I don't need extravagant box sets, just a one or two disc version is fine. I'd just like to know what consensus can be brought on this mess of a catalog.

[zravkapt]

ITCHCOCK - The 40th anniversary I think...the one before the Wilson remix.

Poseidon - Not sure really, I guess the 30th anniversary edition

LTIA - 30th ann. ed.

[tormato]

I'm pleased with my recent reissues by SW, the 5.1 is a real plus if you have a setup for that. Even if you don't, the uncompressed 2-channel DVD-A is still quite good on stereo. The 2 disc CD/DVD sets aren't that pricey either, IMHO. Otherwise, I never had issue with the 30th anniversary ones I had.

[JeffCarney]

I am biting the bullet and looking to replace some old vinyl and crappy MP3s of Court of the Crimson King, In the Wake of Poseidon, and Larks' Tongues in Aspic. But sweet mercy, how many reissues and versions can three albums have?! What a bewildering mess. So please, give me your two cents on which version of these three I should seek out on CD. I don't need extravagant box sets, just a one or two disc version is fine. I'd just like to know what consensus can be brought on this mess of a catalog.

There aren't really that many. It can just look that way on a place like Amazon.

Basically, you have this for Crimson on CD:

Original (Circa 1987)
"Definitive Edition" (1989)
30th (1999)
40th (2009)

Given your comments, I would just get the 30ths if you just want good sounding versions of the original mixes. If you are curious about the Steven Wilson remixes, you could get the 40ths, which do include the 30ths as well as various bonus material. The 30ths you can probably buy for 8-10 dollars each. The Wilson 40th 2CD sets will probably be 18-20 dollars each.

[Dave (in MA)]

ITCHCOCK

There's an ointment for that.

[Jerjo]

Yeah, I started at LaserCD and then brought up Amazon in another tab. All the options gave me a headache. I'm easily confused on a Friday.

[arturs]

I just bought the 40th edition of LTIA (2 disc). And I'm surprised by how much I dislike the new stereo mix. I don't usually get worked up about this mix or that mix, the essence of the music is what matters. But Steven Wilson has really sucked the life out of the thing, especially LTIA 1. To me the new mix sounds like some Berklee students playing the piece perfectly note-for-note but really really afraid to mess up. Not so big a deal on the other tracks.

So I strongly prefer the 30th, or even the "definitive ed". I would be interested in what others think... But here's the rub: with the 40th, you get the full original Beat Club video (4o minutes), which is absolutely essential. So you may want to buy them both. The 40th DVD does have the 30th ed. on it, but only in DVD audio.

[JeffCarney]

I just bought the 40th edition of LTIA (2 disc). And I'm surprised by how much I dislike the new stereo mix. I don't usually get worked up about this mix or that mix, the essence of the music is what matters. But Steven Wilson has really sucked the life out of the thing, especially LTIA 1. To me the new mix sounds like some Berklee students playing the piece perfectly note-for-note but really really afraid to mess up. Not so big a deal on the other tracks.

So I strongly prefer the 30th, or even the "definitive ed". I would be interested in what others think... But here's the rub: with the 40th, you get the full original Beat Club video (4o minutes), which is absolutely essential. So you may want to buy them both. The 40th DVD does have the 30th ed. on it, but only in DVD audio.

And on the 40ths, what's weird about the inclusion of the 24/96 DVD versions of the 30ths is that there is apparently no hi-res information on them at all. I have not done this test myself but have read a report from someone who did and found that basically all the 24/96 30ths are just redbook anyway. Pretty sure this was the case for all of them but I believe this was before Larks was finished, so ...

[Frumious B]

In The Court... was also reissued again in 2004 when the original master tape finally turned up again so you have a 1999 mastering and a 2004 mastering for that one title.

[JeffCarney]

In The Court... was also reissued again in 2004 when the original master tape finally turned up again so you have a 1999 mastering and a 2004 mastering for that one title.

Good point. The "Original Master Edition."

I prefer the 30th to this, and the fact that only one side of the 30th was from the master tape doesn't bother me. The OME is just too damned bright, IMO.

[zravkapt]

In The Court... was also reissued again in 2004 when the original master tape finally turned up again so you have a 1999 mastering and a 2004 mastering for that one title.

That was the version I was thinking of, the first one made from the original masters.

[tormato]

Steven Wilson has really sucked the life out of the thing, especially LTIA 1. To me the new mix sounds like some Berklee students playing the piece perfectly note-for-note but really really afraid to mess up.

What does this even mean? Does SW have a wayback machine and went back in time to force them to play it differently or did you mistakenly listen to the LTIA2 cover Dream Theater did a few years back?

[arturs]

^^^ I'm just amazed how different the feel of re-mixed LTIA1 is, compared to the original. The new SW mix sounds sterile. It is largely devoid of the tension and the unhinged excitement that I feel/hear every time I listen to the original mix. My reference to the Berklee students was an analogy to illustrate that.

I have no idea how/why a different mix can change the feel of a piece of music so much. It's fascinating actually, how much the mixing matters. I would have never believed it until I heard it.

[notallwhowander]

There aren't really that many. It can just look that way on a place like Amazon.

Basically, you have this for Crimson on CD:

Original (Circa 1987)
"Definitive Edition" (1989)
30th (1999)
40th (2009)

Given your comments, I would just get the 30ths if you just want good sounding versions of the original mixes. If you are curious about the Steven Wilson remixes, you could get the 40ths, which do include the 30ths as well as various bonus material. The 30ths you can probably buy for 8-10 dollars each. The Wilson 40th 2CD sets will probably be 18-20 dollars each.

This is pretty sound advice. I've had the 30ths since they came out and have really enjoyed them. They won't disappoint. Consequently, I haven't been in a rush to get the 40ths, though I do have LTiA. The Wilson mix is different. I enjoy it, but there's definitely stuff going on that mark it out as its own thing, tricks that mark it as a modern production, things that could really only be done on a computer. It's all pretty subtle of course. It the same album and all, I'd just hesitate to call it definitive. I more think of the mix as an alternative.

[JeffCarney]

I have no idea how/why a different mix can change the feel of a piece of music so much. It's fascinating actually, how much the mixing matters. I would have never believed it until I heard it.

I've discussed this before but what Wilson does with these remixes is analogous to a modern, "Pro-Tools" kind of mix. Many people rave about the "clarity" but what has been a common theme in his work for me is a sterile, dry as a bone sound that comes from digital remixing. I hear everything clearer but it's irrelevant to me, because the overall feel and excitement in the music are missing.

The only thing I can figure as to why people go for his work is that many have become so used to the sound of digital that taking it a few steps further doesn't seem to phase them. But you simply cannot compare an analog mix that was transferred to digital once for CD and an analog mix where every single track was turned into a digital file, where all the reverb moves on the analog master mix are now gone, and then each track is remixed on computer and finally transferred to CD. It is simply pushing the limits of digital over the edge, IMO.

I suspect that people will find the sound of Wilson's remixes so dated 10-20 years from now that they will be available for 5 cents on the dollar all over Amazon and eBay. But, I could certainly be wrong.

[Trane]

I'll just stick with the 30th Anniv (got rid of the previous Cd versions) for all the 70's albums (USA included), which I have in Mini-Lp formats.



The main reason why I got the LTIA, Red and Discipline (which I had not owned for 29 years) 40th Wilson stuff is for the video contents. I don't own a 5.1 system, and probably won't for a long time.

[Jerjo]

OK, 30th Anniversary material it is.

I find Wilson's production of his own stuff stellar. PT and his solo work sound fantastic on my system. But I get why some would find his remasters sterile. Those old 70s recordings have to breath. I think I am just going to have to consider Aqualung a lost cause, like Quadrophenia. I'm never going to hear a remaster that will satisfy me.

[zombywoof]

OK, 30th Anniversary material it is.

I find Wilson's production of his own stuff stellar. PT and his solo work sound fantastic on my system. But I get why some would find his remasters sterile. Those old 70s recordings have to breath. I think I am just going to have to consider Aqualung a lost cause, like Quadrophenia. I'm never going to hear a remaster that will satisfy me.

I know it's OOP, but have you heard the DCC Gold "Aqualung"?

And I'll 'join the chorus' of people saying "get the 40th of Court, 30th of the rest..."

[old school]

Red 30th or "Definitive Edition"?

[Poisoned Youth]

I'll just stick with the 30th Anniv (got rid of the previous Cd versions) for all the 70's albums (USA included), which I have in Mini-Lp formats..

This is the way I went. I had the "definitive editions", then a friend of mind played me some of the 30ths when they came out. I later wanted to get them, but the only ones available were the jewel case versions. I eventually bought all of the 30th minis by eBay, trade, etc.

They were quite an improvement, imo. Particularly an album like Islands really came to life for me after that.

[Frumious B]

I have the 1999 discs for everything up through 3oaPP. If they ever remastered Thrak at any point I haven't heard it as my copy of that album is still the one I bought on release day. I just have doubles for ITCotCK where I haven't gotten around to deciding whether I think the '99 or the '04 is the keeper. I'm satisfied with that for the studio albums have no complaints about the sound of any of the discs and haven't bothered with any of the Wilson mixes.

[Poisoned Youth]

If they ever remastered Thrak at any point I haven't heard it as my copy of that album is still the one I bought on release day.

I have a 2002 dated mini-LP of Thrak. Not sure if they did anything with it.

[zombywoof]

I have a 2002 dated mini-LP of Thrak. Not sure if they did anything with it.

I have a 30th anniversary of Thrak ... no idea if anything was done with it or not, as it's the only version I own.

[Trane]

This is the way I went. I had the "definitive editions", then a friend of mind played me some of the 30ths when they came out. I later wanted to get them, but the only ones available were the jewel case versions. I eventually bought all of the 30th minis by eBay, trade, etc.

They were quite an improvement, imo. Particularly an album like Islands really came to life for me after that.

We were lucky enough that these KC 30th Mini-Lp were European-made (Dutch I beliebe), and like the Zep mini Lps, they were rather cheap... I don't think I pais more than €15.00 (big max) per album... except for maybe USA

And yeah, Islands did gain a lot in my esteem with that 30th anniv...

[Dave (in MA)]

Discipline (which I had not owned for 39 years)

You haven't owned it for 8 years longer than it existed.