That I agree with. I have a problem with anybody who focuses all of their attention on learning how to play like one particular artist. Copycats miss the point. It's fine to learn from other musicians, but the ultimate goal is to sound like yourself.Originally Posted by Cats On Glue
This almost never happens. Tell me who can do that? Guitarists develop 'their' style, usually that's it. That becomes their sound, just as Allan has his. He might be more 'concieved' as a one-trick-pony because his style ( his only style ) is so unique and falls so far out of the mainstream that he's percieved more as being that way. - oh and that's IMHO!
Well, Holdsworth definitely has a box, but it's a great box. I love FZ but he only had two solos he ever played either and they both got old after a while, so I wouldn't use him as an example
In general, and putting the bogus clip aside, the guitar solo's only as good as the song, imo.
It's all about the setup , and that's a lost art in most of today's fusion .
no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone
nosebone is so correct. i've tried at times to think about why it is exactly that i love certain solos wether guitar, sax, keys, whatever. in many cases i came to the conclusion that it was the wild, crazy, interesting things going on behind it that made it so special.
re- frank zappa. the first time I saw him live the thing that stuck out the most was how he varied his approach for almost every solo. but I do understand that maybe he's rifling off a lot of the same runs i'm not a guitarist. but at the very least he threw out 5-6 distict different guitar sounds. but your right, mayyyybe not the best example, it was just kind of in theme with the thread. regardless of how unique this holdsworth style is, am i the only one who finds it too predictable, to samey sounding for everything he does? I have yet to see the clip but does it suprise anybody that maybe he has trouble adapting to different music that might not conform with his 'style'? can anybody imagine holsworth being able to adapt like, lets say chris spedding whos as comfortable in jazz as he is avant gard, prog , rocknroll and punk? i mean 'that' sound can only take you to so many places. and after 35+ years oyyy
Cats On Glue,
I again have to disagree with you - your opinion - don't get me wrong - I LOVE Zappa - his writing abilities and choice of chord structure in his charts is second to none - but most of the time, when it's solo time for Frank - ( because it was always different with Vai and others he's had ) he would settle in on one, sometimes two chord changes and go on and on - and ( again IMHO ) in that nazaly tone ( almost like setting a wah pedal in that 'honk' position ). I don't recall ever hearing other 'tones' from him. Perhaps I haven't listened enough, although I've been listening for years.
Like I said, there's no real denying that Holdsworth is a one trick pony- it's just a mutherf@cker of a trick
Well, apart from that cat that plays with UK now. Holy crap!!
ok, let's examine some things about frank zappa. i'm not near my music, so i will yapp off the top of my head. just chatting dean, no offence meant or taken in any way.
-ok so we have black napkins which is the type of solo that seems like that signature zappa.
-how about his lengthy solo on the grand wazoo, with that great twangy effect.
-how about his solo on the ocean is the ultimate solution, with that almost acoustic feel to the guitar sound (and maybe it is, i don't know)
-and ya, those sweet wa wah solos
but even solos aside frank at least tried to play in jazz style at time, rock style, crunched some chords once in a while, changed guitars, used some effects. i personally have never hear anything from holdsworth but that same meandering, almost seemles lead guitar soloing style and sound. as technically good as that may be (i'll take musicians words on it) it been the same for too may years. :-)
Cat, I agree with you completely about Holdsy, as stated above he's a one trick ( exceptional ) pony ... re: zappa, I'll have a listen to your suggestions, and as I said, perhaps I haven't heard enough ... you might convince me yet!
Holdsworth always wanted his guitar to sound like a saxophone.
Blowing without hearing the pick attack.
He's been experimenting with different guitars, amps & many effects over his career, to achieve that seamless, compressed wind instrument sound.
His style, choice of notes, and incredible speed are what seperates him from other guitarists.
He really is a jazz musician, trapped in a nether world of prog/shred/metal fusion.
no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone
Damn, Chris, that's exactly what I was going to bring up! But you know, sax players can play with dynamics and alter their tone in various ways; Holdsy can't with that smooth, compressed distortion sound he uses. Even as a fanboy, I do have that one beef with his playing; no dynamics except when he does his chordal thing with the volume pedal. Ironically, when he was using the Synthaxe, he WAS able to solo with dynamics, especially when he used that breath controller attachment. But everybody hated it when he picked up the Synthaxe. Poor guy can't win! Actually, on Bruford's "One of a Kind," he was soloing with a fairly clean tone at times and there were some dynamics. But that was a long time ago...
But like you say, it's his note (and rhythmic) choices, dexterity and harmonic sophistication that sets him apart.
Cats is right, Zappa did experiment with a lot of different tones. But like Dean said, all of his solos were over a two chord vamp, mostly two chords that you can use the same scale or mode over. His rhythmic thing was fascinating, but I found his soloing to be sort of hit and miss; he'd always stumble on some great ideas, but there was a fair bit of rambling between those moments. Of course, I'm sure a lot of folks hear Holdsy that way too. I loved Frank, but his playing wasn't my favorite aspect of his art.
His compositions sometimes don't thrill me, but his playing always does. As usual, it's just taste. Only one Holdsworth.
I've seen this before. You've summed it up.
Ok, so just to weigh in here...
Check out Metal Fatigue, specifically the rhythm work during the verses.
Then check out All Our Yesterdays. Then check out Funnels. Then check out anything off "None Too Soon."
Allan can play crunchy rhythm. He usually has one "orchestral" huge chord-swells-and-volume pedal work melllow thing per album. There's the clean, chorused rhythm sound of, for example, Funnels, and a variety of cool sonic tricks are to be found on Road Games, where he gets the guitar to sound like a "tack piano," also vaguely "koto-ish" on Tokyo Dream, via the pull-off harmonics. And "None Too Soon" demonstrates that Allan, is, indeed, at heart a Jazz player, who is going for the legato saxophone tone for sure.
Granted, he's got a unique voice, and a lot of folks copy him, but I disagree that he's a one trick pony, though he did experiment more, early in his career. And I haven't brought up the "Dreaded Synthaxe," which I happen to appreciate.
That's why I still prefer his 70s to mid 80s playing.
He had a more traditional guitar rig that breathes.
He can't control that ,which is why he hates tube amps with just a few effects.
The last time I saw Holdsy ( about five years ago), his sound was sooo tiny and compressed , it drove me crazy!!
He just streamed 32nd notes at light speed for every solo!
Even though, I'll always love that guy.
no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone
What does this mean: I love FZ but he only had two solos he ever played either and they both got old after a whileWell, Holdsworth definitely has a box, but it's a great box. I love FZ but he only had two solos he ever played either and they both got old after a while, so I wouldn't use him as an example
??
I admit I'm oversimplifying, but it means that to me he had two basic styles of solo that he played (the quick, quirky SG blues-based one and the slow, outside, Strat-whammy-bar one) and he did variations of them for just about everything. To my ears he was not a tremendously varied soloist. When he needed other things to go on, he had other people play them, which was wise.
I like to listen to Zappa because he played melody. Holdsworth for some reason couldn't think of anything to play on the Treacherous Cretins vamp, but listen to FZ on the original. He has a multitude of melodic ideas flowing throughout a 5 or 6 minute solo.
Of course Holdsworth has done the same thing in his own music. The 4:15 Bradford Executive features a very long solo with great melodies.
It's a pity that a prejudice towards the Synthaxe kept many people from listening to the music that was being played. Stuff like Sand, Spokes, Non Brewed Condiment, and the solo on Wayne Shorter's Ana Maria is some gorgeous music, imo.
That video was so bad I had to close it before I puked on my iPhone.
Painful.
I'll just play "Secrets" until those bad images go away.
I'm one of the few who enjoyed Allan's Synthaxe pieces. I wish I could have seen him live playing it. The music he played with it was highly emotive. Beautiful music from a stellar composer.
Last edited by Boceephus; 08-03-2013 at 02:27 AM.
Yeah, let's just go with you are oversimplifying
One of my very favorite Holdsworth solos (although I'm not crazy about the actual tune, which doesn't seem to have anything to do with the solo section)! That solo really tells a story!
Solo starts at 2:34 minutes:
Last edited by No Pride; 08-02-2013 at 09:12 AM.
Great beefy sound on that tune!
no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone
i finally watched the vid and really it had me hoping for holdsworth. i don't hate the guy at all and i don't feel comfortable watching anybody whos cleary as uncomfortable as he appeared to be. i know that musicians here really respect the guy, obviously that means something. i did like him when I first caughton to the prog albums he was on in the 70s, but it grew old for me fast. i do have two solo albums of his, neither did much for me. may he livelong and p[rosper
I entirely Agree.
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