Did Genesis consider replacing Hackett ?

[GuitarGeek]

I'm guessing Genesis decision to have Mike play all guitars on the albums after Hackett left had something to do with them wanting to be a band of composers, at least in the studio.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a band of composers". They were all composers, if you want to use that word, they all shared in the songwriting. I've seen make a couple different comments on the matter, one being that he felt that if the album was going to be forty minutes long, then there should be 10 minutes of music written by him on it. Another time he said that the others wanted to "write by committee".

While there's a few songs on Trick, W&W, ...Three, Duke and Abacab that list just one person as a songwriter, I think Phil, Mike And Tony were more into the idea of coming up with stuff by jamming in the rehearsal room (which they had always done, going at least back to the Nursery Cryme period), versus bringing in songs written before hand.

As far as Mike's guitar playing, he's maybe not as dextrous as Steve, but I do like the lines he came up with on a lot of songs. I love his guitar work on songs like Abacab, Duke's Travels, Behind The Lines, and Second Home By The Sea.

Speaking of which, I think that was another reason not getting someone to fully replace Steve. When you've got a 4 or 5 guys in a band, sometimes one or two of those guys are doing stuff on a track, simply because they don't want to be "left out". For instance, I get the impression one of the reason Peter started playing flute and oboe was because as he put it, "I didn't have a guitar to wave around, and Tony was so possessive about the keyboards". So playing an instrument nobody else did gave him something to do during the instrumental bits.

I remember one interview where Tony said there were occasions where Steve played stuff which were there just for him to have something to do. I think he specifically cited The Lamb, though know if he meant the song itself or the album as a whole, where he felt there were places where he felt it would worked better without some of the guitar overdubs. By pushing on as a trio (at least in the studio), if they came to something where the three felt worked fine without a guitar part. Or at least, it didn't have to have a highly prominent guitar part, whereas if they had another guitarist in the band, they might to have argue with this guy about whether or not a given song "needs" his contribution.

[GuitarGeek]

Gary Moore??? Please! Moore was a successful hard rock and blues guitarist both solo and in bands, he wouldn't have worked at all. And someone said he declined, doesn't surprise me, I'd guess he declined something like this " 'ck off, I've got a successful career, why would I join you lot?"

Not in 1978 he wasn't. At that time, I think he had been in a Skid Row, done a couple solo records, and had been in and out of Thin Lizzy a couple times, and some session but that was it. He had also been in Coliseum II, which was closer to a progressive rock band, so that may have been why he might have been considered for the job.

Given that time frame we're talking about, if Gary was asked about working with Genesis, in whichever capacity, I imagine that came around the same time that he was asked to join Thin Lizzy yet again, after they kicked Brian Robertson out after Live And Dangerous came out. So it's possible he had already made that commitment to working with the greatest rock band Ireland ever produced, which in any case was the right move to make, because he stayed around long enough this time to contribute to a full album, which was Black Rose, which I still say is one of the greatest hard rock albums of all time, so that deal worked out for the better anyway.

And the "highly successful solo career" didn't really kick into gear for Gary until the 80's (after he quit Thin Lizzy for at least the third time). And the blues thing didn't start until the early 90's, when Gary got sick of having to come up with music that the labels deemed "radio friendly" in the glam metal era. Besides which, I recall reading years later that he felt that he got sidetracked, perhaps by record company and managerial pressure, into doing the heavy stuff he did during the 80's. I think he probably wanted to do something different for awhile by the time he committed to doing those blues records he made in the 90's.

[bp]

Stan Whittaker would have been the guy for that job. HTM was a possibility for backing PG at about that time.

Happy The Man's connection to Genesis and PG came trough two of the Genesis road crew (Dale Newman and Dan Owen) IIRC. I don't think that Genesis ever thought about Stan at the time, especially if they caught wind that PG was looking at HtM for his band. In the end Stan's decision not to join PG (on two occasions) was due to there being no prospect to contribute as a song writer. In addition when HtM had their time playing with PG, part of the story I've been told is that Peter thought that HtM may have kept Peter sounding a bit too much like Genesis. At the time Peter was looking to find a different direction and I'm glad that he did and I'm also pleased that HtM did the two Arista albums that would not have happened if the got the gig with PG. The downside is that I'm sure Stan would have done a wonderful job with Gabriel and we'll just never know what may have been there.

[Bigpicturekeys]

Totally agree with this post. Really an extension of the playing on Small Creeps Day or visa versa. For someone not thought of as a very good guitarist there are pieces on SCD that are just killer to me. A real desert island pick for me.

I just got done listening to Burning Rope and I think that song is the best Mike ever played in Genesis period. He's using a Roland GR-500 guitar synth on that and I just love what he plays and how it sounds. I also saw him do it live in the Oakland Arena on the ATTW3 Tour,1978.

[Progbear]

LOL! Rutherford on the kit... I wonder what it really sounded like.

Probably something like this:



They should have gone this route, too: stuck Tony on guitar and Daryl on keys.

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

"It is not an obscenity to be free. It is a divine right." --Annette Peacock

N.P.:“Atlanta”-Rahmann

[Neil Palfreyman]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Tony Iommi had an audition?

Wait.... no; I just made that up.

[Dodie]

^ LOL. No, I think they asked Tony Iommi, but he suggested they should try Ted Nugent or Francis Rossi...

[ThomasKDye]

A rhythm guitarist, perhaps, but Rutherford is not a very good lead guitarist by any stretch. To my ears he is basically a very decent bass player who plays good support rhythm guitar, but when it comes to soloing... That's where Hackett was sorely missed.

There's about four good Rutherford guitar solos in all post-Hackett Genesis:

Many Too Many
Duke's Travels (just before Phil returns with the vocals)
Abacab (at the fade out)
Second Home By the Sea (again, before Phil returns with vocals - I'm sensing a pattern)

"Do the Neurotic" also has some pretty atypical good lead work from Rutherford.

[Yanks2014]

I think it worked out just fine not replacing Hackett. They would have either had a sound alike, or someone totally different and possibly a bad fit for the band. Instead they recorded and released a very fine album in "And then there Were Three". Just listened to it again last week, from start to finish, and I'm still quite baffled as to the criticism this album gets. Seems Duke, another fine album, gets quite a bit more respect. The songs on ATTWT are a little shorter but still quite complex and involved. Less soloing, but still some fine playing all around. I have to say I like ever song on this. Still sounds like classic Genesis to my ears.

[Rufus]

I think it worked out just fine not replacing Hackett. They would have either had a sound alike, or someone totally different and possibly a bad fit for the band. Instead they recorded and released a very fine album in "And then there Were Three". Just listened to it again last week, from start to finish, and I'm still quite baffled as to the criticism this album gets. Seems Duke, another fine album, gets quite a bit more respect. The songs on ATTWT are a little shorter but still quite complex and involved. Less soloing, but still some fine playing all around. I have to say I like ever song on this. Still sounds like classic Genesis to my ears.

Have warmed to ATTWT over the years , particularly Burning Rope but it's far from a classic! If I ever hear Say it ain't so Joe again it would be a moment too soon !

[Dodie]

I think it worked out just fine not replacing Hackett.

Well, I wouldn't go that far.
But for me the point is they never could have replaced Hackett.
Rutherford is an ok rhythm guitarist, but for me that's as far as it goes. And judging from interviews in the last few years, he's matured into the most boring member of Genesis by far...
Perhaps if I heard Smallcreeps Day I'd change my mind, but Genesis without Hackett was always very hit and miss, and too much of the latter on some albums.

[dpt3]

I always thought it would've been interesting if Ant had rejoined after Steve left.

[Chuck AzEee!]

Gary Moore is on record stating that he was a huge Genesis fan and that "Foxtrot" was one of his all time favorite albums. Mike didn't realize that Gary Moore had thought about auditioning for the empty role, as his agent was the one who suggested that he do so, but he felt that his style would be wrong for the band.

Robert Fripp said that he wasn't a fan of Genesis and never would've played with the band unless he changed a few things around.

Phil Manzanera and Paul Thompson (Peter had wanted him for the band prior to Collins) had nice things to say about Genesis but Phil Manzanera was never considered for the job.

[revporl]

I would like loved Daryl Steurmer and Chester Thompson to have played on the records, top musician both would have brough something to the albums after W and W

[rich]

Below is a portion of an email from Alphonso himself. I met him at a few shows over the years, nice guy. He now teaches at The University of Southern California.

Hi Rich,

I was approached by Phil Collins who wanted to know if I would be interested in playing bass with the group. The idea was that whenever Mike wanted to play bass I would play Chapman Stick and whenever he wanted to play guitar I would play bass. When I met with Mike to audition he thought that I had already learned the guitar parts and was ready to go into full rehearsals with the group. I assumed that he was going to show me the guitar parts since they are a lot of arpeggios involved. In any case, it didn't work out but I did suggest that they call Darryl Sturmer who played great guitar and bass and filled the chair admirably.

[rich]

I would like loved Daryl Steurmer and Chester Thompson to have played on the records, top musician both would have brough something to the albums after W and W

Well Daryl for sure, Phil was certainly an excellent drummer but as stated earlier Mike is a very good bass player, good writer and decent rhythm player but extremely deficient as a lead player. I would have found it interesting if Daryl and Chester had made an LP together... with their jazz pedigree it surprised me they didn't.

[LeFrog]

I think the band have said several times that Alphonso Johnson's audition made them understand they needed a guitarist who could play bass and not a bass player who could also play guitar.

[yesstiles]

Rutherford played fantastic guitar on "Burning Rope" and "Smallcreep's Day."

[Digital_Man]

I think the first person they should have asked to replace Hackett should have been Ant. Even if he were to decline and he probably would have(if he still suffered from stage fright)but at least give him the opportunity to consider rejoining.

[UnephenStephen]

I remember one interview where Tony said there were occasions where Steve played stuff which were there just for him to have something to do. I think he specifically cited The Lamb, though know if he meant the song itself or the album as a whole, where he felt there were places where he felt it would worked better without some of the guitar overdubs. By pushing on as a trio (at least in the studio), if they came to something where the three felt worked fine without a guitar part. Or at least, it didn't have to have a highly prominent guitar part, whereas if they had another guitarist in the band, they might to have argue with this guy about whether or not a given song "needs" his contribution.

that's a laugh. maybe Steve would have had more to do if Tony didn't hog all the instrumental and solo parts. isn't that why Steve left in the first place? He himself said that the last album on which he felt he was a full contributing member was Selling England. i buy that. do you hear him on Mad Man Moon at all? and the Lamb, man. he got a few bits in there but to my ears it was a very keyboard heavy album (Colony, Scree, Cage, etc).

[GuitarGeek]

that's a laugh. maybe Steve would have had more to do if Tony didn't hog all the instrumental and solo parts. isn't that why Steve left in the first place? He himself said that the last album on which he felt he was a full contributing member was Selling England. i buy that. do you hear him on Mad Man Moon at all? and the Lamb, man. he got a few bits in there but to my ears it was a very keyboard heavy album (Colony, Scree, Cage, etc).

Steve left because the band wasn't doing enough of his compositions. And I think you're talking about something different than what I'm talking about. I'm talking about someone playing something on a song, just for the sake of having something to play. That's different than whether or not the band is doing material written by a given band member, or whether said band member is being allowed to play more solos or whatever. If you're playing a superfluous instrumental part on a given song (or something that someone else in the band feels is superfluous), it's because you can't deal with not playing during a said song.

The comment from Tony was in an article in Keyboard magazine over 30 years ago. It was the, I think September 84 issue, he's on the cover, playing his Prophet-10 and Synclavier. Anyway, he was talking about how there's more room in the arrangements with the band as a three piece, and they don't have to deal with someone playing something "to keep busy" or whatever. I think he was speaking to why they didn't get a full fledged replacement for Hackett, the other reason of course being that they thought the band worked better with just three songwriters.

BTW, one thing that always bugged me was the one documentary where Rutherford makes a crack about how "Steve's strong suit is his guitar playing", then backs up and amends himself, by saying "strongest suit", as if to imply the reason they weren't doing more of his songs and compositions was because they weren't very good. Well, certainly on his first two solo albums, I can't agree with that thinking. I might buy that some of his songs on Spectral Mornings onwards weren't so good, but then, there's songs on all the trio era Genesis albums that aren't very good either.

[JJ88]

That comment always put my back up too. Especially considering this is the man who gave the world Acting Very Strange.

I think Genesis have been blessed with all the talent they've had in the band.

[yesstiles]

maybe Steve would have had more to do if Tony didn't hog all the instrumental and solo parts. isn't that why Steve left in the first place? He himself said that the last album on which he felt he was a full contributing member was Selling England. i buy that. do you hear him on Mad Man Moon at all? and the Lamb, man. he got a few bits in there but to my ears it was a very keyboard heavy album (Colony, Scree, Cage, etc).

Man, you need to get a hold of some of the Spring 1975 European live Genesis shows. Hackett makes up for what's said above by playing all over The Lamb in concert by that time. It's hard for me to go back to the studio LP's after hearing those.

[Chuck AzEee!]

Below is a portion of an email from Alphonso himself. I met him at a few shows over the years, nice guy. He now teaches at The University of Southern California.

Hi Rich,

I was approached by Phil Collins who wanted to know if I would be interested in playing bass with the group. The idea was that whenever Mike wanted to play bass I would play Chapman Stick and whenever he wanted to play guitar I would play bass. When I met with Mike to audition he thought that I had already learned the guitar parts and was ready to go into full rehearsals with the group. I assumed that he was going to show me the guitar parts since they are a lot of arpeggios involved. In any case, it didn't work out but I did suggest that they call Darryl Sturmer who played great guitar and bass and filled the chair admirably.

that's a laugh. maybe Steve would have had more to do if Tony didn't hog all the instrumental and solo parts. isn't that why Steve left in the first place? He himself said that the last album on which he felt he was a full contributing member was Selling England. i buy that. do you hear him on Mad Man Moon at all? and the Lamb, man. he got a few bits in there but to my ears it was a very keyboard heavy album (Colony, Scree, Cage, etc).

I love "Mad Man Moon" my favorite song on a great album but what bothered me about Genesis is that when it came to Steve's contributions it always seemed like an issue. Tony was upset that Steve used some great material on his debut album YET all of the music he wanted to submit to "Wind & Wuthering", Phil complained about "Please Don't Touch" and Mike and Tony complained that his selections weren't good enough, yet the mundane "Your Own Special Way" (a song I like) and "Wot Gorilla?" (a song I never been crazy about) were placed on to the album instead.

Anyway, just like mentioned previously bringing in another musician for studio work wouldn't have worked with Tony and Mike's personalities.

Steve on the other hand from his first album showed how much he had to offer and how much they lost when he left. There was no replacing Steve his departure from the band could never be replaced.

[GuitarGeek]

That comment always put my back up too. Especially considering this is the man who gave the world Acting Very Strange.

One of these dyas I'm going to have to hear that record. I remember pulling it out of the bin at Wax Stax (oh geez, that's already more than 20 years ago) and flipping the cover over and seeing the Rickenbacker 450 12 string on the back, and almost buying it, just for that. But for some reason I put it back in the bin and continued shopping.