Brain Salad Surgery played live

[vostoklake]

Apologies if this topic has been discussed somewhere in the depths of time and in an antique thread.

Keith Emerson said that, after the heavily overdubbed Trilogy, one of their priorities for Brain Salad Surgery was to create material that they could play live. But - after the subsequent tour as immortalised on Welcome back my friends..., and of course apart from "Karn Evil 9 First Impression pt 2" - how often was Brain Salad Surgery material played live after then? If at all?

I honestly can't remember such material on any official release or ROIO. It seems like I must be missing something. At least they might have cranked out "Still... You Turn Me On" once or twice?

Of course the irony is "Karn Evil 9" almost instantly had to be transposed down in live renditions, the first of many times they had to do that for Greg Lake's voice. And after Lake decided to give up playing electric guitar, they couldn't even play "First Impression pt 2" properly.

[Sputnik]

Apologies if this topic has been discussed somewhere in the depths of time and in an antique thread.

Keith Emerson said that, after the heavily overdubbed Trilogy, one of their priorities for Brain Salad Surgery was to create material that they could play live. But - after the subsequent tour as immortalised on Welcome back my friends..., and of course apart from "Karn Evil 9 First Impression pt 2" - how often was Brain Salad Surgery material played live after then? If at all?

I honestly can't remember such material on any official release or ROIO. It seems like I must be missing something. At least they might have cranked out "Still... You Turn Me On" once or twice?

It's an interesting point. I also can't think of much material from BSS on the Works or subsequent tours. Really only "First Impression - Part 2." It's odd, this being among their most popular albums, but there's no question it got little attention after the BSS tours.

Of course the irony is "Karn Evil 9" almost instantly had to be transposed down in live renditions, the first of many times they had to do that for Greg Lake's voice. And after Lake decided to give up playing electric guitar, they couldn't even play "First Impression pt 2" properly.

Meh. I'll never understand why people get so worked up about moving keys down. Singing is hard, and it's better to move it down a little bit and save the vocalist than to not play the song. I honestly can't tell much of a difference when bands do this, and it's never bothered me.

Also, count me among those who actually likes the keys taking over the guitar solo in "First Impression - Part 2" live. I always found this transition incredibly clunky. The bottom just falls out of the music, and the whole section just seems "off" to me compared to the studio version. Compare that to what they did for High Voltage, which I watched recently. Admittedly, not their best performance of this track, but that section flowed much more smoothly to my ears, and it actually rocked, and didn't sound nearly as awkward.

Just my opinion, but for for live performance, I think using the keys for the solo is just as "proper" as guitar.

Bill

[flowerking]

Lake did Still You Turn Me On on some subsequent tours (Works and then after reforming in the 90s). But otherwise, they did seem to drop everything else from that album.

[Jacob]

I recall towards the end of 1973 that ELP played in Philadelphia. It was probably in December. On that particular tour they were covering most or all the material from Brain Salad Surgery along with some earlier stuff.

Then Welcome Back was released in the summer of 74' and that's when I saw them. It was somewhat different from the Brain Salad Surgery tour. ...although it still ended with a robot moving about on stage while a Synthesizer rotated its oscillating sounds between 4 stacks of bass bins/mid range/tweeters quadrophonic system.

Future concerts were much different regarding the choice of material..beginning with the tour they did with the orchestra and all through the 90s where they performed maybe a total of 3 tracks from Brain Salad.

The same situation with Works Vol. I...I believe they stopped performing Piano Concerto and pulled Fanfare and Pirates as regulars. I may not be totally correct on this...however it seems like they began condensing tracks from specific albums to form a more current set list..

[vostoklake]

Meh. I'll never understand why people get so worked up about moving keys down.

Well, in the case of "KE9 (impressions 1 and 3)", as you can hear on Welcome Back My Friends, they downtune for the vocal part and then tune right back up for the instrumental parts. Most importantly, why didn't they just write the piece in a key that Lake could sing comfortably to start with?!?

[Sputnik]

Well, in the case of "KE9 (impressions 1 and 3)", as you can hear on Welcome Back My Friends, they downtune for the vocal part and then tune right back up for the instrumental parts. Most importantly, why didn't they just write the piece in a key that Lake could sing comfortably to start with?!?

Honestly, I never really noticed, though I'm not actually a huge fan of that album. I'm not certain I even own it right now.

If true, that is a bit wonky, and I'm not certain why they'd move around like that, but in a sense this just proves my point. This is one of the most popular live albums of the 70s, and maybe of all time. The vast majority of people simply DO NOT CARE about stuff like this, especially simply moving the key down a half step, or a step. They don't notice, and they don't care. Bands cover songs in different keys all the time. It's just not that big of a deal.

As far as the original key versus what they did live, it probably had to do with the rigors of touring, and the fact that I don't think Lake particularly took care of himself or his voice, which surely exacerbated the problem. They toured their asses off in 1973 and 1974. Over time, he just couldn't hack what he'd done in the studio.

Bill

[JJ88]

Yeah I think most of it never survived beyond the original tour.

If true, that is a bit wonky

It is, and it is. Genesis did the same with 'Home By The Sea' in later years (starting with the Ray Wilson versions).

I can see why ELP kept only the 1st Impression- Part 2 bit on subsequent tours, because of this.

The same situation with Works Vol. I...I believe they stopped performing Piano Concerto and pulled Fanfare and Pirates as regulars. I may not be totally correct on this...however it seems like they began condensing tracks from specific albums to form a more current set list..

Emerson did retain the 3rd section on the 'trio' tour when they ditched the orchestra, and later did a rock arrangement of it in his solo shows.

[kilianltia]

It is true that most of the BSS material was dropped in subsequent years but the band did absolutely gig the hell out of it in 1973 and 1974. It was most likely created as a live vehicle for immediate live performance and to that end it fit the bill perfectly.

[Rarebird]

Well, in the case of "KE9 (impressions 1 and 3)", as you can hear on Welcome Back My Friends, they downtune for the vocal part and then tune right back up for the instrumental parts. Most importantly, why didn't they just write the piece in a key that Lake could sing comfortably to start with?!?

Probably because they liked it that way for the record, which I suppose would be considered the real version. One has to make some sacrifises in playing live. (Just like with overdubs.)

I remember the story of Max Werner (RIP) and Kayak, where it was stated that they really didn't think about what was comfortable for him to sing. They wrote something and gave it to Max, to sing it. And in a studio-setting, well it could be done, but doing it live was of cause a different animal.

[Batchman]

Most importantly, why didn't they just write the piece in a key that Lake could sing comfortably to start with?!?

Presuming "they" is Emerson, the piece was primarily composed in the key of A, which is a relatively natural key to write keyboard-based music in. For performance they had to tune down to A flat, which presents a challenge for most keyboardists who are not Emerson. (I caught the difference back when the live album came out and wondered about it then, though no one else around me even noticed.)

[Steve F.]

Yeah I think most of it never survived beyond the original tour.

IF this memory is correct

First was the tour that was recorded to make Welcome Back

Then was the tour pushing Welcome Back, their newest release; it was essentially identical to the previous tour

THEN, because the tour and album were so popular, was another tour; this tour was, again, essentially identical and this was the tour that I saw. So the complete piece lasted for at least three tours.

[Mr.Krautman]

Lake did Still You Turn Me On on some subsequent tours (Works and then after reforming in the 90s). But otherwise, they did seem to drop everything else from that album.

Along with Lucky Man , Still... was a classic in their repertoire and included in almost all their live sets up to the 90ies (and over ?). Obviously, Greg seemed to like (t)his song very much.
But I never heard any other live versions of Jerusalem than the one on Welcome Back. Did they ever played it later, and if yes is there any recorded trace ?

[vostoklake]

Presuming "they" is Emerson, the piece was primarily composed in the key of A, which is a relatively natural key to write keyboard-based music in. For performance they had to tune down to A flat, which presents a challenge for most keyboardists who are not Emerson. (I caught the difference back when the live album came out and wondered about it then, though no one else around me even noticed.)

... this is not true. The piece is originally in A flat, which is a much easier key to play tricky keyboard runs (because the black keys are raised and easier to do runs down).

[Czyszy]

... this is not true. The piece is originally in A flat, which is a much easier key to play tricky keyboard runs (because the black keys are raised and easier to do runs down).

Hmmm... I'm not so sure. Ab uses 4 black keys while A uses 3. I don't think it makes that much of a difference for a skilled piano player like Emerson.
Most ot the keyboard players I know say that the easiest key to play keyboard runs in is F# major (or Eb minor) because they can do pentatonic solos by simply bumpin' around on the black keys. ;P

[chalkpie]

Meh. I'll never understand why people get so worked up about moving keys down. Singing is hard, and it's better to move it down a little bit and save the vocalist than to not play the song. I honestly can't tell much of a difference when bands do this, and it's never bothered me.

Bill

For those of us "cursed" with perfect pitch, transposed keys make music you are familiar with almost unlistenable, or just very uncomfortable (at the very least). It's like looking outside and seeing the lawn colored pink or purple instead of the usual green....my brain has a difficult time deciphering it. It truly is a curse more than a blessing. I'm usually out immediately when I hear something in a different key. It's rough.

[battema]

For those of us "cursed" with perfect pitch, transposed keys make music you are familiar with almost unlistenable, or just very uncomfortable (at the very least). It's like looking outside and seeing the lawn colored pink or purple instead of the usual green....my brain has a difficult time deciphering it. It truly is a curse more than a blessing. I'm usually out immediately when I hear something in a different key. It's rough.

It's a little jarring for sure (thankfully I'm somewhere between relative and perfect so I don't get twitchy as often as I might). I'm pretty sure Tony Banks DOESN'T have perfect pitch; I think I read somewhere that when they transpose things down he simply updates his keyboards so his parts remain the same. I tried doing that once and it was a mental divide by zero; my fingers hit notes, my ears heard OTHER notes and kept trying to direct my hands to the keys that my ears THOUGHT they should be playing

[MudShark22]

It's a little jarring for sure (thankfully I'm somewhere between relative and perfect so I don't get twitchy as often as I might). I'm pretty sure Tony Banks DOESN'T have perfect pitch; I think I read somewhere that when they transpose things down he simply updates his keyboards so his parts remain the same. I tried doing that once and it was a mental divide by zero; my fingers hit notes, my ears heard OTHER notes and kept trying to direct my hands to the keys that my ears THOUGHT they should be playing [emoji38]

Same here + would rather learn the transposition than f#&* with the soundbanks...

Sent from my NE2217 using Tapatalk

[Czyszy]

I only have relative pitch so I'm indifferent about bands playing their songs live in a different key. 99% of the time the key would be moved down BUT Spock's Beard actually transposed Crack the Big Sky a semitone UP for their 2007 tour. That's really impressive.

[Sputnik]

For those of us "cursed" with perfect pitch, transposed keys make music you are familiar with almost unlistenable, or just very uncomfortable (at the very least). It's like looking outside and seeing the lawn colored pink or purple instead of the usual green....my brain has a difficult time deciphering it. It truly is a curse more than a blessing. I'm usually out immediately when I hear something in a different key. It's rough.

OK, I accept that, but this applies to about .01% of the population. I think the way you present your issue here is fine. You say, "I'm out, and this is why," which makes sense, but of all the complaints about bands changing keys, I've never heard someone bring up "perfect pitch" or acknowledge it as primarily their issue. They couch it like the band is violating some kind of law of nature and that it's spoiling the experience not just for them, but for everyone.

It's that lack of perspective that bugs me. The vast majority of listeners don't notice and don't care, and if it comes down to making adjustments for an ageing voice, or a voice shredded by a heavy touring schedule, or a different singer with a different range, artists make the logical choice and alter the key. I think you get that, but I'm not sure everyone who brings up this issue does.

Bill

[JJ88]

But I never heard any other live versions of Jerusalem than the one on Welcome Back. Did they ever played it later, and if yes is there any recorded trace ?

Not AFAIK. Surprising really.

Sometimes lowering keys works for the better. Genesis' 'As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs' springs to mind- which is, what, one whole tone lower live. The slower pace also improved it- the studio one is like they are rushing through it to fit it on the record.

And sometimes, it doesn't. On that Anderson-Rabin-Wakeman tour, very few songs were in a lower key. 'All Good People' was a semi-tone lower (didn't make much difference, really). 'Awaken' was a whole tone and didn't work for me. It didn't help they slapped some dreary prelude at the beginning of it.

With KE9, a fair bit of that changed from A flat (the original) to F flat (live). That's objectively a big difference. But it's not a criticism either.

[calyx]

The whole "KE9" suite was technically very complicated to play. Ed Macan's bio suggests that Lake got lazy after the 1975/76 break and wouldn't be willing to play such demanding bass lines. So they only retained the simplest, and most popular, section of the suite. What I find more puzzling is why they never performed "Jerusalem" again. Carl Palmer told me it was the song he thought as the best introduction to ELP when I interviewed him, yet it was never played after the 1973/74 tour.

[battema]

Sometimes lowering keys works for the better. Genesis' 'As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs' springs to mind- which is, what, one whole tone lower live. The slower pace also improved it- the studio one is like they are rushing through it to fit it on the record.

First-listen cognitive dissonance aside, I ultimately preferred the lower keys on some of the Genesis 80's/90's tunes in their later concerts (apparently set when Wilson was there and kept for the 2007-? tours). Put back a touch of darkness in some tunes like Mama, No Son and stuff like that. For me anyway!

[JJ88]

^They were lowered even more on the last Genesis tour, so fill your boots!

So they only retained the simplest, and most popular, section of the suite.

I sort of get it in the 1977/8 period- that track in full takes up a whole lot of room in a set, and they obviously wanted to play new stuff. I suppose the compromise would have been to just play the 1st/3rd Impressions (a la California Jam). Like the abridged 'Tarkus' and 'Pictures...' arrangements they did.

[JAMOOL]

appreciate the discussion here, something always seemed 'off' about the Welcome Back KE9 performance, now I know what it is. tbf it is an incredibly difficult piece of music to play, even if they botch a number of parts they do a pretty good job with it overall. I really like how ELP was kind of like a highwire circus act at this point.

[Batchman]

Well, I just decided to confirm my assertion by playing back the relevant sections of KE9 from both BSS and WBMFTTSTNE. Both are in A flat.

Apparently when I was hearing the live version on the radio back then, I had recalled the studio version in my own memory in the wrong key and that convinced me that they were playing it a half tone flat live.