Debussy
Ravel
Stravinsky
Bartok
Ligeti
Dvorak
Carl Orff
Richard Strauss
Beethoven
Brahms
Shostakovich
Prokofieff
Wagner
Varese
Mahler
Webern
Bach
Grieg
Sibelius
...and many other composers are the fathers of several prog subgenres
Debussy
Ravel
Stravinsky
Bartok
Ligeti
Dvorak
Carl Orff
Richard Strauss
Beethoven
Brahms
Shostakovich
Prokofieff
Wagner
Varese
Mahler
Webern
Bach
Grieg
Sibelius
...and many other composers are the fathers of several prog subgenres
The first kind of music other than kiddie music telling me the cow goes moo or something was Classical - introduced to me by my uncle. My childhood was spent listening to Beethoven and Bach and whatever other thing I was give to listen to. It wasn't until later that I discovered Pop music (of the AM radio variety) and then Rock music on the FM. Then I slowly gravitated towards Prog with everything else mixed in there as well including Jazz.
Long story short, I finally discovered my music philosophy which I still go by today: There are only two kinds of music in the world - what I like and what I don't like. No other divisions are needed. I can listen to Genesis, Magma, Yes, Beethoven, Steve Reich, Coltrane, Bill Evans, 1930s band music, Rage Against the Machine, Pet Shop Boys, A Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy and Janet Jackson. What's the difference? Music is either something I enjoy so I listen or something I don't enjoy so I don't listen.
Mongrel dog soils actor's feet
Talking about Shostakovich in particular, who I believe ultimately will be considered the greatest classical composer of the 20th century -- his life story and the emotional impact of his music and the historical context is comparable to Beethoven's in many ways -- plus he is the only composer to have his own Usenet newsgroup (alt.fan.shostakovich) -- and a personal favorite of mine.Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate
Anyhow, I'm not aware of any instance of appropriation of DSCH's works or tunes in any rock context, prog or otherwise. Contrast this with other 20th c. composers: Stravinsky (in addition to Yes using his recordings at concerts, significant chunks of Zappa's Absolutely Free were his, and of course there's Egg); Barber (side 2 of It's a Beautiful Day's debut album was based on his Excursions, and In the Court of the Crimson King owes a lot to Barber's First Essay for Orchestra); Bartok and Prokofiev show up in Keith Emerson's output, of course; a chunk of Charles Ives pops up in the middle of the Buckinghams' "Susan." But no Shostakovich, despite his popularity with listeners like us?
What we feel we have to solve is why the dregs have not dissolved.
Shamblemaths from Norway have done Shostakovich in a beautiful and unique way
http
Marvelous!
What we feel we have to solve is why the dregs have not dissolved.
I think another “classical” composer whose music would be appealing to prog fans would be Alan Hovhannes. This discussion is getting interesting, I would throw in a question - is prog absolute or program music? I notice many of the composers recommended lean towards the program side. Interestingly, one of the most offered arguments against prog is that it leans heavily toward the absolute side ( show-offy, over technical etc )- an argument which, while understandable, I find lazy and unconvincing.
That whole LP is superlative, wonderfully so on multiple levels - including genus. It breaks away from most definitions set to paradigm, while at the same momentum marking out totally new principles of formality in relation to source. This stuff veers completely beyond the "meta" and interreferential latitudes and modes still known, establishing its own nature of character, ripe with inner logics or rather lack of any such thing - as it doesn't seem needed on hearing.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Based on your first sentence (anyhow ;-) I will definitely check out Shamblemaths. The reviews in Progarchives look very promising.
What we feel we have to solve is why the dregs have not dissolved.
One Shostakovich piece that might work very well as prog-metal: Movement 3 of the Eighth Symphony. It's not hard at all to hear it as just that, only played by an orchestra.
I think I posted this in the Post Something Cool thread couple of years back
Actually this guy has done quite a few Shostakovich metal versions
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...LA5tzCEo8Izw8H
Why be "scared"?
Fearing to be "scarred" ?
Just go for it
yeah, it goes in cycle, but roughly 5% of my albums are classical (plus those few I saved from my dad, once he departed), and they rarely get a spin.
Then again, plenty of jazz & prog are also yawners in my book.
I never thought classdical was "superior", unless you talk about the thickness of dust layers covering it.
I'm only half-joking , but the codes for the public once you go to concerts certainly need a good dusting-off - though I understand it's not nearly as uptight (a broom handle up the arse) as it once used to. TBH, I caught a sizeable part of the audience that was bored or even dozing off (none of them were headbanging) - as if it was there, because it was socially expected of them to be there.
As for the music itself, there might be more layers and stuff to discover in between them layers, but that's because the full orchestra is more numerous (humans) than the "basic prog quartet"
yup, much more my case, but I'm more hermetic to certain jazz niches (bop & ragtime, for ex) than I am to classical niches.
However, I loathe operas (except for Rossini's intros): I always feel like shooting the fat lady howling as if in real pain and want to mercifully end her plight & sufferance (and for my eardrums' sake as well)
My parents always (90%, anyways) played classical music at home, so I always was exposed to it. Although I liked it well enough, I never really ENJOYED it all that much. Anything from Bach to Vivaldi until the seven Russian composers - but nothing beyond that
Indeed, it lacked POWER (except for the tempest in Ludwig's Pastorale), and that's what I yearned for.
When my dad sensed (IMHO) that I wadn't going to pursue his path, he had me try the first Tomita albums (Snowflakes and Pictures) and that was an instant it, because it had to be played loud. But by that time, I was already on my rock music course and more specifically "prog"/art rock. BTW, I never cared for later 70's Tomita (including his WoW rendition), though.
I suspect I immediately enjoyed "symphonic prog" because I was already familiar with classical music codes
Add in JR/F in there for me.For me, the larger choice, since the late 80s, has been Prog-Rock or British Folk/Folk-Rock and Psychedelic Folk. They've found a way to coexist nicely.
I must say that's it's been 10/15 years since I've been been no attention at all to "mainstram prog" (you know, the stuff you find at the top of the top 20 of 20XX in prog sites)
indeed, I've always found that saying quite pretentious (and symph-weenieNope.). Bill Martin's famous book's title always annoyed me beyong belief.
I've always yawned at Enid and found it very pretentious and totally failing to deliver the goods. (ditto for Penguin Cafe Orchestra)
I even went to Verviers' 66 to see Godfrey and Enid on stage, just to see if I was missing part of the hoopla that might've not appeared on the studio stuff, and I was bored all the way through.
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
^^^ For me, Penguin Cafe Orchestra are entirely different in approach and vibe to The Enid. PCO are relatively unpretentious, provide a (usually) light atmosphere with their quirky arrangements and charming melodies. I wonder if you are familiar with the first few albums in particular. To each their own.
That could work, since Hovhaness' music is less complex and more immediately accessible than most other 20th c. composers. I would think that the "minimalist" composers like Glass and Reich would also be appealing. Pete Townshend has already acknowledged the influence of Terry Riley on Who's Next (that's who Baba O'Riley is named after).
First of all, this question of program vs. absolute music applies primarily to instrumental classical; vocal works are programmatic by their very nature. Second, the proportion of instrumental to vocal music is much different in rock than it is in classical. So let's consider only instrumental prog, a smaller set. And of those, let's exclude prog appropriations of classical works, so no ELP Pictures, for example.
Certainly there are instances of instrumental prog works with a "program", e.g. Henry Cow's Western Culture. Other works may have had some programmatic origin we're not aware of unless the creator(s) own up to it in an interview.
I tend to think the opposite of what you suggest, that absolute music encourages technical prowess over content. Rather, it seems to me that having a stated "program" for work may encourage just that, on the presumption that the program gives an excuse or a rationale for putting less effort into making the music responsible for engaging the listener. True absolute music rises and falls on its intrinsic compositional value, in any genre.
Prog with lyrics could go either way if the lyrics are just placeholders or not meant to convey meaning. In the case of Yes, and Jon Anderson in particular, there are two conflicting notions: (1) he chooses words based on their sound and not their meaning, and (2) his songs express spiritual and other profound concerns based on books he's read. Can both of these be true?
What we feel we have to solve is why the dregs have not dissolved.
^ Yes, if he read a lot of gibberish books.
I can't see any common points either between The Enid and PCO which are stylistically completely different bands.
@ Trane posts above:
Is "pretentiousness" the common link between PCO and The ENID ? That's just absurd and meaningless : how could you define "prentiousness" in music (or arts in general) ? Is the music "pretentious", or the artists, or both ? If you're speaking about the musician's ATTITUDE (not necessarily related to their works) there are myriads of artists/bands MUCH more "pretentious" than the P.C.O or ENID. (mainly in the mainstream pop-rock genre).
"pretentious" or "pretentiousness" are the most commonly used terms used by prog-rock (or any elaborate or complex music) detractors and (afaik) are the weakest (and mostly stupid) arguments you can use.
And, btw, classical music (in general) carry the same derogatory infamous label and is usually called "pretentious" by all who don't like it. Same for the Jazz. Same for Frank Zappa, etc...
If so then maybe one day I'll end up considering "pretentiousness" as a major quality (in Arts)
Last edited by Mr.Krautman; 05-20-2023 at 06:13 PM.
Gentle Giant used to hang a huge banner with the word "Pretentious" over their stage set when they performed. It was obviously meant as a dig on the critics (this was pre-Missing Piece etc.), but in fact GG always seemed far less worthy of that labeling than the usual big prog suspects.
What we feel we have to solve is why the dregs have not dissolved.
Gentle Giant never tried to be 'epic', which in my ears make them so more 'long lasting'.
Skullhead?
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
The 4th mvt of DSCH4 is one of my favorite movements ever. Its total prog
Not only that, but they also had a compilation album titled:
"PRETENTIOUS" (For the sake of it)
Now I think I'm starting to like "pretentious" bands more and more...
GGP.01.jpg
Well, I like The Enid, though I tend to prefer their output up to Six Pieces. I also have some later stuff, by them and I like that as well, but those first albums have some energy and complexity, I seem to miss on their more recent stuff with vocals. Six Pieces was the first album I had by them. Borrowed it from the library and put it on a tape. I think on the other side was England - Garden Shed. I loved it, with I think 3 keyboardplayers.
Penguin Cafe Orchestra is nice, something even my dad could appreciate. Perhaps it belongs to the same category as Flairck (which my pianoteacher hated) and the German ensemble Farfarello.
Gentle Giant still is another group I love.
There are only 3 movements but I see your pointThe 4th mvt of DSCH4 is one of my favorite movements ever. Its total prog
What I love about Shostakovich is also his use of the fugue, and the second movement contains plenty of it (I have zero theoretical knowledge but what happens with the strings in the middle of it is fugue, right?). The theme is being dissected and reshaped in such beautiful ways, that gets stamped in one's memory for eternity. Absolutely brilliant work.
^ Definitely...it's highly contrapuntal....no doubt Bach influenced but very much doing his own thing. The 4th was hidden and stored away for years - check out the crazy history if you haven't delved in. Yes - it is three movements, but my brain gets fucked up thinking its four sometimes since the older Gergiev CD is indexed with four movements! So I may forever associate that piece with four...ooohh!
Have you heard all of the "war" symphonies - four through nine? If not, you must, and then don't miss ten and eleven. Hell, hit 'em all!
I am hitting them all, so far the ones that I haven't listened thoroughly are 1-3, 6, 9, 13, 14.
Did today the 5th again, and how about that 3rd Largo Movement? I had to play it 3 times in a row just to grasp some sort of an impression of it. Such weird and difficult to target music, speaking in a language with which I am totally unfamiliar, ethereal, ultra-dimensional, moving in a flow that leads to nowhere, like a frozen river, still on the outside but flowing below. I have to say that I understand nothing of it, but I am completely sold to its atmosphere.
The 8th is also magnificent - it's dark and it's murky as uncle Frank would say. There's some serious contrapuntal stuff in the 5th Movement too.
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