Congo (Live) - Genesis (Not bad, but...)

[EBES]

I've talked with Tony many times since the 80s & he has always been a gentleman & very easygoing. The "jerk" stories tend to be by folks who never, in fact, interacted with him. As for Tony & Steve - they get along just fine!

I really appreciated Ray's kind words in the Rolling Stone interview about how Tony handled the situation. Nice to hear it corroborated by someone who's met him.

[aith01]

I really appreciated Ray's kind words in the Rolling Stone interview about how Tony handled the situation. Nice to hear it corroborated by someone who's met him.

Seconded.

[Dan Roth]

Aside from Ray they have had guys who fronted Journey, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. Those bands aren't for me (except maybe Journey, a bit) but there are probably entertaining stories.

They have now done a really deep dive interview with John Tristao. Who? He was the lead singer in Creedence Clearwater Revival for 21 years. Gotta say, apart from the CCR/Fogerty lawsuits, this revival band was never much on my radar, but this interview is super interesting.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...ed-1234592101/

[pb2015]

^^ So it's not only Yes and Journey who had replacement singers who had a rough time from the veteran band members and the audience about not being able to hit the crazy high notes every night, I guess.

[EBES]

They have now done a really deep dive interview with John Tristao. Who? He was the lead singer in Creedence Clearwater Revival for 21 years. Gotta say, apart from the CCR/Fogerty lawsuits, this revival band was never much on my radar, but this interview is super interesting.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...ed-1234592101/

This was a fascinating interview indeed; thanks for sharing. I like CCR well enough but can't imagine giving any time to the Revival lineup. But reading about the behind-the-scenes stuff is quite intriguing.

[Scott Bails]

Read a few of those "King for a Day" stories and now I'm completely depressed.

[the winter tree]

I listened to "One Man's Fool" this morning and was reminded that this seldom mentioned track is a Genesis classic. If they would have trimmed off some songs like "If That's What You Need" and "Smalltalk" and developed the other songs more with endings it would have been a really good album. I put it on occasionally and enjoy it for what it is.

[Splicer]

I listened to "One Man's Fool" this morning and was reminded that this seldom mentioned track is a Genesis classic. If they would have trimmed off some songs like "If That's What You Need" and "Smalltalk" and developed the other songs more with endings it would have been a really good album. I put it on occasionally and enjoy it for what it is.

For me this is the best song on the album.

[aith01]

I listened to "One Man's Fool" this morning and was reminded that this seldom mentioned track is a Genesis classic. If they would have trimmed off some songs like "If That's What You Need" and "Smalltalk" and developed the other songs more with endings it would have been a really good album. I put it on occasionally and enjoy it for what it is.

Yeah, I agree. Although I still think it's a good album, even if it's flawed and doesn't measure up to the ones that came before.

[Yaman Aksu]

That song made me think of this: On Genesis albums Phil was able to to complement and improve the building up of energy as the song moves forward building up, by bringing high notes and delivering them with high energy, he was a natural at that too (Live version of Domino was an example, such as on the Way We Walk DVD). Gabriel was a natural at that too, I mean listen to the scream at the beginning of Rhythm of the Heat for example. Ray was relatively limited (or maybe disinterested) in that important second "delivering them with high energy" aspect, even when his voice somewhat goes into high notes (well, high for him, but not that high), such as heard on that song One Man's Fool. The drummer brought the beat in 2nd verse and, by the end section has elevated the energy quite a bit but Ray's part still held itself back – Phil often takes a song like this somewhere else by the time energy builds up, and in fact is often a contributor to the building up of energy that would come from Mike and Tony themselves, the three moved well together without dampening. This is not a critique on the album, I like the album a lot.

[pb2015]

In the Rolling Stone piece Ray Wilson mentioned that the original idea with that version of Genesis was to have two singers. Might have been a good idea.

[JJ88]

ISTR Banks citing 'One Man's Fool' as an example of a song that Collins might have elevated to greater heights. I've never felt it was that great- it's just sort of alright, really.

[Yaman Aksu]

ISTR Banks citing 'One Man's Fool' as an example of a song that Collins might have elevated to greater heights.

So I'm spot-on then? Niiice ))

[EBES]

That song made me think of this: On Genesis albums Phil was able to to complement and improve the building up of energy as the song moves forward building up, by bringing high notes and delivering them with high energy, he was a natural at that too (Live version of Domino was an example, such as on the Way We Walk DVD). Gabriel was a natural at that too, I mean listen to the scream at the beginning of Rhythm of the Heat for example. Ray was relatively limited (or maybe disinterested) in that important second "delivering them with high energy" aspect, even when his voice somewhat goes into high notes (well, high for him, but not that high), such as heard on that song One Man's Fool. The drummer brought the beat in 2nd verse and, by the end section has elevated the energy quite a bit but Ray's part still held itself back – Phil often takes a song like this somewhere else by the time energy builds up, and in fact is often a contributor to the building up of energy that would come from Mike and Tony themselves, the three moved well together without dampening. This is not a critique on the album, I like the album a lot.

This is a reasonable critique. I don't know if it would have made an existential difference to the larger success of this band/lineup, but it's a worthwhile point. I assume that reluctance comes from being (a) the new guy, and still a bit reserved or self-conscious, and (b) never having previously played music with a lot of complex dynamic arcs. Seems like something that might have worked itself out on further releases.

[Interstellar]

I love Ray Wilson's singing, but he has a more limited range and less power than Collins at his peak, and he doesn't seem to have much of the eccentricity or theatrical qualities that Gabriel and Collins had. He had an intensity of his own, and he looked quite relaxed and at ease on stage, but seemed to be a bit more reserved than his predecessors. Had Genesis carried on with him, it would have been interesting to see/hear his evolution.

[JJ88]

I re-watched some of the Katowice show a while ago and the one Collins-era track which worked well was 'Domino', I thought. Wilson seemed to respond to that one more.

I believe that this tour was the start of that awkward arrangement of 'Home By The Sea', where the first part was in a lower key to the second (still in the original key). So it doesn't really gel.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

When Congo was released as a single, before I heard the album, I remember being mildly excited. Ray clearly had a bit of a Gabriel-vibe going, and the song was darker than anything they had done for a while, which at the time appealed to me. I attributed the fade-out to a single edit, but of course when the album came both Congo and many other tunes had weird, "we don't know what more to do with this song"-fade-outs.

But to me the real problems with CAS are these:
A) The drumming. It's nowhere near the quality Phil would've brought to the album. The drumming is static and un-dynamic, and does not drive the music the way Phil's drums always have. The drums on CAS work mostly as a passive timekeeper.

B) The arrangements. While some of the songwriting seems pretty interesting - some classic Banks progressions and such - nothing really gels or goes anywhere. Again, I think Phil is the missing piece both as a writer, arranger, critic and drummer. He would've thrown out the bits that didn't work, and he would've made the parts that worked even better. There's no drama or flair to the arrangements, everything just sort of plods along. I recognize that quality from some of Tony Banks' solo stuff - he relies so much on his admittedly amazing harmonic skills that he forgets about such things as rhythmic dramaturgy and propulsion. Both Tony and Mike are great writers, but Phil brings the drama and the action.

C) The vocals. Although Ray is not a bad singer by any stretch, he is so clearly basically just a session guy singing other guys' songs competently. He doesn't "own" the performances in the way Gabriel or Phil would.

Also, the production is not helping the flatness of the arrangements.

ALL that said, there are some good tunes on the album. I especially like Uncertain Weather and Congo. And again, the darker atmosphere of the music was a bit of a relief after the almost too mellow WCD.

[JJ88]

'Congo' I actually prefer in its single/video edit. That unrelated intro/outro on the album version really doesn't work for me, and again, the outro has one of those stupid fades.



'If That's What You Need' is like a bland Mike and the Mechanics album filler. 'Small Talk' should have been a B side, if indeed anything at all. I agree that the album would improve without these. It's just...unfortunate that the latter is one of the songs with Wilson writing credits.

[SunRunner2]

When Congo was released as a single, before I heard the album, I remember being mildly excited. Ray clearly had a bit of a Gabriel-vibe going, and the song was darker than anything they had done for a while, which at the time appealed to me. I attributed the fade-out to a single edit, but of course when the album came both Congo and many other tunes had weird, "we don't know what more to do with this song"-fade-outs.

But to me the real problems with CAS are these:
A) The drumming. It's nowhere near the quality Phil would've brought to the album. The drumming is static and un-dynamic, and does not drive the music the way Phil's drums always have. The drums on CAS work mostly as a passive timekeeper.

B) The arrangements. While some of the songwriting seems pretty interesting - some classic Banks progressions and such - nothing really gels or goes anywhere. Again, I think Phil is the missing piece both as a writer, arranger, critic and drummer. He would've thrown out the bits that didn't work, and he would've made the parts that worked even better. There's no drama or flair to the arrangements, everything just sort of plods along. I recognize that quality from some of Tony Banks' solo stuff - he relies so much on his admittedly amazing harmonic skills that he forgets about such things as rhythmic dramaturgy and propulsion. Both Tony and Mike are great writers, but Phil brings the drama and the action.

C) The vocals. Although Ray is not a bad singer by any stretch, he is so clearly basically just a session guy singing other guys' songs competently. He doesn't "own" the performances in the way Gabriel or Phil would.

Also, the production is not helping the flatness of the arrangements.

ALL that said, there are some good tunes on the album. I especially like Uncertain Weather and Congo. And again, the darker atmosphere of the music was a bit of a relief after the almost too mellow WCD.

I think that this summarization says it all. Well stated and to the point.

[EBES]

B) The arrangements. While some of the songwriting seems pretty interesting - some classic Banks progressions and such - nothing really gels or goes anywhere. Again, I think Phil is the missing piece both as a writer, arranger, critic and drummer. He would've thrown out the bits that didn't work, and he would've made the parts that worked even better. There's no drama or flair to the arrangements, everything just sort of plods along. I recognize that quality from some of Tony Banks' solo stuff - he relies so much on his admittedly amazing harmonic skills that he forgets about such things as rhythmic dramaturgy and propulsion. Both Tony and Mike are great writers, but Phil brings the drama and the action.

This is a pretty good critique of that aspect of Tony's solo work. I like his solo stuff a lot more than most people -- in fact it's quite close to my heart -- but it does sometimes feel like it's not working as well as it should, for reasons that are hard to pin down, and that's a decent summary of one reason why. I also agree with how it applies to CAS.

[aith01]

This is a pretty good critique of that aspect of Tony's solo work. I like his solo stuff a lot more than most people -- in fact it's quite close to my heart -- but it does sometimes feel like it's not working as well as it should, for reasons that are hard to pin down, and that's a decent summary of one reason why. I also agree with how it applies to CAS.

I think it was Mike who once said something about Tony like "I don't think he knows what a drummer is used for." Or something like that.

Tony's solo music/compositions do tend to reflect that; less focus on rhythmic dynamics or the role of percussion. However, I wouldn't call that a shortcoming. It's one of the things that makes his writing unique, what makes him sound like Tony Banks. It's also one reason why Genesis was much more than the sum of its parts, IMO, having Phil and Mike there to round things out and contribute. The band together was able to accomplish what none of them could apart, which is what makes bands special -- when they truly gel at least.

[JJ88]

I think Banks' solo work has also suffered from a lack of vocal (and therefore, brand) identity. Rutherford at least found distinctive vocalists in Paul's Young and Carrack within the Mechanics.

I like A Curious Feeling and The Fugitive more than Banks' other albums because there's only one singer throughout them (himself, in the case of the latter). By contrast, I don't know how many vocalists something like Still has, and it feels somewhat unbalanced as a result.

[Tangram]

I think Banks' solo work has also suffered from a lack of vocal (and therefore, brand) identity. Rutherford at least found distinctive vocalists in Paul's Young and Carrack within the Mechanics.

I like A Curious Feeling and The Fugitive more than Banks' other albums because there's only one singer throughout them (himself, in the case of the latter). By contrast, I don't know how many vocalists something like Still has, and it feels somewhat unbalanced as a result.

Big fan of solo TB but his problem for me was that his band was always faceless. Nobody was pushing the albums. Released in the era where MTV was king, and there were no catchy videos (and don't get me started on the video with him and Fish riding bicycles). Like you said, Rutherford got two top shelf singers, he was in the videos, plus he was pushing the songs in the media. Banks was chasing a hit single but wasn't willing and/or able to do what was required. Do I think his solo work matches the best of Genesis, no. But all of albums have some strong songs. To me, That Night and I'll Be Waiting could have both been hit ballads with really strong videos.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

OK, I just went and looked at that Tony-and-Fish video. Pretty lame. And the song really does lack dynamics, which is a shame because it's otherwise a pretty good song.....

[aith01]

OK, I just went and looked at that Tony-and-Fish video. Pretty lame. And the song really does lack dynamics, which is a shame because it's otherwise a pretty good song.....

I really like Shortcut To Somewhere.