I've never heard Water's demos for the album but I've always imagined them to be quite bland and unremarkable. I think the band felt that way too but had no choice but to go with Waters's vision as they had their backs to the wall financially.
For me, it's the arrangements (likely by Gilmour, Ezrin and Kamen) that take the songs to another level. Since it's a story, some linking pieces retain the bare bones nature of the demos and can be considered filler.
Remove the fillers and the album will be a completely different thing. Same with the Lamb.
The fillers add to the quality of the album as a whole
There are some very fine musical interludes in Animals but I find Waters bitter and twisted vocals/lyrics to be so depressing that it ruins the whole thing for me.Originally Posted by mozo-pg
No Animals!!
Back to The Wall - "We Don't Need No Education" sung by a group of school kids is perhaps the most stupid lyric from an intelligent rock band.
Or clever?
The bitterness is a part of the album. Just like there are happy albums.
Heh for me The Wall has the best vocals Pink Floyd ever had.
My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/
I think the question here is - what is "filler"? One man's filler is another's "deep track", right? - It all comes down to the question of what a popular music record is. Opinions vary depending on the artist, album etc. IMHO opinion the most commonly held idea of what "filler" is does not apply to "The Wall" ( or "The Lamb..." for that matter ) - This is a concept album with a narrative. You may not like the songs - that is people's prerogative and taste, but to call them filler is like calling a few pages of "Les Miserables" that people feel are slow "filler"
My own humble opinion is that I reject the use of "filler". That makes me think of those people that call anything "not the hits" filler. Very simplistic. To me, there are tracks you like, tracks you don't like. Still listen to whole albums.
just my humble opinion.
v
That's cool with me, maybe I didn't like what a lot of people like about Floyd. I got into them a bit late and the sequence of events were as follows:Heh for me The Wall has the best vocals Pink Floyd ever had.
1. Borrowed Dark Side from my local library at about age 14 - didn't like/get it.
2. A few years later heard Wish You Were Here, loved it and bought it.
3. Shortly afterwards bought Animals and was rather disappointed by it. Some good music but didn't like the concept or Waters vocals.
4. Got The Wall and pretty much hated most of it and got rid of it.
4. Years pass and AMLOR comes out and I love it (except The Dogs Of War), saw them live in '88 and '89 and couldn't get enough and bought Delicate Sound of Thunder vinyl and video which I still love to this day.
5. During '88 finally bought Dark Side and because I'd already heard most of it live anyway finally loved it.
6. 1994 - got the Division Bell and saw them at Earls Court twice - fabulous.
Also, not a fan of Roger Waters!
Agree - even Roger's !Heh for me The Wall has the best vocals Pink Floyd ever had.
I always thought his strained shouty vocals in tracks like "Hey You" and "The Happiest..." the embodiment of desperation and despair - the very opposite of what I had heard up to around that time on popular music... so different - loved them.
v
Indeed! The effect is interestingly theatrical, but at the same time very raw and emotional. Theatricality is easily accompanied by a certain amount of inauthenticity, but Waters' strong sense of emotion manages to sell the end result, at least for me.Agree - even Roger's !
I always thought his strained shouty vocals in tracks like "Hey You" and "The Happiest..." the embodiment of desperation and despair - the very opposite of what I had heard up to around that time on popular music... so different.
v
My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/
I agree with some of what you say. Obviously all of this is extremely subjective.
For 70s albums, you rarely get discussion of something being considered "filler" on anything except double concept albums. In some cases, it's the perception by fans that the band is stretching the material to fill out four album sides (Tales, for example). I don't think it's unreasonable to call that filler, because on a single record some of those ideas might have been used more economically and to greater effect. That's a matter of opinion of course, but a lot of people are of that opinion.
In other cases it might be material that people don't consider as strong, especially if it doesn't really connect in a significantly meaningful way to the thrust of the storyline.
I think one could argue both cases with The Wall and Lamb, though it typically only applies to a small amount of material. There's a post early in this long thread that lays out some cuts or trims that I don't think would have any major impact on The Wall as a whole, and might actually improve it, but it only amounts to about 10 minutes of material, if even that.
I also think there's some filler in The Lamb. I believe Silent Sorrow is specifically there to provide time for costume change, and serves no other real function. The Waiting Room could have been trimmed as well, in my opinion of course, as well as a couple of other pieces, but then you don't have 74+ minutes of music. But the band put themselves in that position, so I don't think it's unreasonable to have a discussion about it possibly being filler, because it sounds a bit like filler to a lot of people.
In any case, I think the discussion of filler is a bit different from simply, " music I don't like," and while it's clearly subjective and you will never get agreement, I think there is a pretty broad consensus that some of these longer albums could have benefited from some trimming. Then the question becomes, how much?
Bill
Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk
Victor Hugo was less an offender than Emile Zola regarding some useless paragraph in their novels.
Zola (and a few others in the XIXthC) was paid by the page in daily newspapers, so there are times where basically, he recopied (paraphrased) technical books or dictionaries.
Clearly Sorrow and Room were instrumentals written to allow The Gabe to slide in & out of the Sliperman suit.
However, there is nothing happening in Sorrows (filler), wheras Waiting room is filled with exiting stuff - one of the Lamb's better tracks IMHO.
Hope that helps
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
Me about The Wall:
30+ years ago: Not one of my favorite, from among even that band's few albums I know , but sometimes interesting to listen to, except a few songs, such as Brick In The Wall
25+ years ago: See above.
Now in 2023: Haven't heard this album in 25 years, because I realized I don't find it that interesting anymore, except some parts such as the CN solo and RLH's non-vocals parts. There's other music I'd much rather hear but the new younger generation need not be influenced by these comments(yes sure enjoy the album if you want to, I know I once did). Even the instrumental "is there anybody out there" that used to be one of my favorites from that album is sort of meh. For example I think their "Learning to Fly" is a more interesting song for me musically than similar/upbeat songs of The Wall
I have a theory that bands do double albums when they know that the best tracks they have would not make a single album as good as there last release. So they go for quantity. Fits on many an occasion.
I don't think there is any filler on The Wall. In fact I really love some of the pieces some of you may categorise as filler. For example "Empty Spaces" is brilliant.
My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/
Good point. Is ”Vera” a filler to some people? I love that one.
You could actually read the thread and see the variety of opinions on Vera. The short answer is, yes, but others feel The Wall is perfect as it is. Shocker.
Like Bring The Boys Back home, Vera's got its place in the storyline, but both (and Nobody Home & Is There Anybody Out There) are really earsores (the first two) or very boring (the latter). They are totally expandable IMHO and would imagine skip them if I were to play the whole album (which it wouldn't be "whole" anymore, of course). IMHO as well, I could do without Don't Leave Me Now and One of My Turns.You could actually read the thread and see the variety of opinions on Vera. The short answer is, yes, but others feel The Wall is perfect as it is. Shocker.
Some people won't like the D-side, but there is much prowesses in there (if you'll except the disco beat of Run Like Hell , but then again Brick 2 was also discobeatish): Worms and Trial are awesome constructions.
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
You have to take into consideration Rogers "original" idea for this project included a stage show, album and movie.. every part is integral to his vision...
Amen to that. All this cherry picking of songs that don't stand on their own is missing that. This album needs to be listened from beginning to end.
"The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"
In general, fillers or interludes often play an important role in the flow of an album.
White Car on Drama is a great example, IMO.
In Roger's mind, that's probably true, but I think there is some stuff that could be lost without significantly diminishing the point of the work, and I think a lot of other people feel the same. Productions like this typically go through massive editing processes before they hit the stage. I've been privy to this process a couple of times and actually gave feedback on what worked/didn't work for one show that was being worked up. I'm sure the person that conceived various scenes thought they were crucial, vital, and effective, but some simply didn't translate or come across that well to the majority of viewers, so they got changed, or dropped. It isn't that big a deal, and taking that process seriously can make shows far better.
I had to go through this in my second book. My editor dropped an entire scene that I thought was both really clever and very important to the conclusion the main character reaches at the end of the book. With a heavy heart, I took his advice, and when many of my beta readers read the final version, they said it was actually better without that scene, and the work lost nothing. I don't buy the myth that every little thing the artist thinks is so important actually is. Sometimes you have to listen to the people around you. I don't get the sense that this is especially Roger's forte.
I think The Wall, both the album and the movie, drag at times. The worst period in my mind is that whole middle section of side 3 and that is true of that period of the movie as well. I think a lot of that material could have been dropped or shortened without losing much, or actually having addition by subtraction. I'm sure Roger didn't see it that way, but that doesn't mean he's right, or that what wound up in the final version is somehow beyond reproach.
Bill
You ask too much, I can't take it any more.
Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/
Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
I blame Wynton, what was the question?
There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.
I suppose you could say there are filler moments on the Wall just like there are on Tommy, TFTO, The Lamb or London Calling. Find me a double that doesn't have some kind of filler on it. However, with the Wall none of it really sounds much like filler to me maybe because of the production or something (I'm not sure) or maybe the way everything seems to flow into each other. Also, the album seems to get more intense towards the end so maybe that has something to do with it. Anyway, I like it just the way it is. If it was a single it wouldn't sound as "epic" (same thing with Lamb).
Do not suffer through the game of chance that plays....always doors to lock away your dreams (To Be Over)
Its just down to personal taste, maybe filler is really just 'tracks I don't like'. For me I love all of Yes's Tales, wouldn't be without any of it but the The Wall and The Lamb are a different story - I just like a few tracks on both. I'm happy to have Comfortably Numb and The Lamia and never hear the rest of those albums again.
I've seen the extras that were included with the DVD of the movie where Roger says something to the effect of "It didn't turn out exactly like I would have liked to have seen it.." going on to add "it lacked humor.." Fair to say when he toured the album a few years back the stage show was different due to a number of things.. technology, making the theme more universal etc.In Roger's mind, that's probably true, but I think there is some stuff that could be lost without significantly diminishing the point of the work, and I think a lot of other people feel the same. Productions like this typically go through massive editing processes before they hit the stage. I've been privy to this process a couple of times and actually gave feedback on what worked/didn't work for one show that was being worked up. I'm sure the person that conceived various scenes thought they were crucial, vital, and effective, but some simply didn't translate or come across that well to the majority of viewers, so they got changed, or dropped. It isn't that big a deal, and taking that process seriously can make shows far better.
I had to go through this in my second book. My editor dropped an entire scene that I thought was both really clever and very important to the conclusion the main character reaches at the end of the book. With a heavy heart, I took his advice, and when many of my beta readers read the final version, they said it was actually better without that scene, and the work lost nothing. I don't buy the myth that every little thing the artist thinks is so important actually is. Sometimes you have to listen to the people around you. I don't get the sense that this is especially Roger's forte.
I think The Wall, both the album and the movie, drag at times. The worst period in my mind is that whole middle section of side 3 and that is true of that period of the movie as well. I think a lot of that material could have been dropped or shortened without losing much, or actually having addition by subtraction. I'm sure Roger didn't see it that way, but that doesn't mean he's right, or that what wound up in the final version is somehow beyond reproach.
Bill
Last edited by happytheman; 09-10-2023 at 05:07 AM.
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