Oh, sorry 'bout that (my bad, I totally misinterpreted what u meant!)Originally Posted by Zappathustra
Oh, sorry 'bout that (my bad, I totally misinterpreted what u meant!)
This is just so moving!
The line "West is Mike and Susie" from Refugees is a fine example of a personal reference acquiring a far more significant status. This is the Hammill modus operandi. I mean you don't know who those people are, and yet in the context of the song they become the friends that you used to have. When crying out Susie's name in "Easy to slip away", it's already an established relationship with the listener. And emotionally it is just shattering.
^'Susie' was in the news a few days ago.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebri...shock-11930298
This is insane. Is Hammill's Mike her brother then?
Maybe because it's the human voice, and it's the differences between human beings that in large part make human beings interesting. I'll take an interesting voice over a smooth, clean voice most days, and Hammill's voice is certainly interesting. It feels like you're finding out a lot about him from his voice, although it's probably much more the combination of his voice and the words he's singing.
As far as progressive music with vocals that ruin the music (and I have a high tolerance for "bad" vocals), it's often something like someone with a truly offensive voice who should know better, or someone singing in a language they're not familiar with where things go off the rails. Especially when the lyrics have obvious grammatical errors. It just gets sort of comical, which isn't good. As many have said before as an example, I don't speak or understand much German at all, and wouldn't think of trying to sing in German unless I a) took some voice lessons and b) really studied the lyrics so I knew that they meant and that everything was grammatically correct. I wouldn't just wing it and assume it'd be fine!
I know very well what it means, and it was a rather idiotic spelling, good on you for pointing that out. Waste makes haste. Happy to correct a mistake. I guess if you want to split hairs you criticized the singing and not the singer but that's debatable, IMO. It would be a boring world indeed if we all shared the same perceptions. I stand with my original argument vis-a-vis intentions.
I'm aware that this is only your opinion, but can you describe a bit how you find Hammill's singing to be pretentious?
To me it's not at all pretentious - it strikes me as someone using his voice very honestly and openly, without pretension, and his lyrics often strike me the same way. There's more vulnerability on display in his use of both than anything else, IMO.
^^^
Good point JK, and one I totally omitted. When I first heard PH what struck me was the emotional intensity and honesty of what he was doing. Virtually the opposite of pretentiousness. Now of course you could construct a valid argument (as many have) that this is self-indulgent...
P.S. I hope my remarks aren't coming across as pretentious.
No, just emotionally intense, honest, and a little self-indulgent.^^^
Good point JK, and one I totally omitted. When I first heard PH what struck me was the emotional intensity and honesty of what he was doing. Virtually the opposite of pretentiousness. Now of course you could construct a valid argument (as many have) that this is self-indulgent...
P.S. I hope my remarks aren't coming across as pretentious.
<sig out of order>
Fair enoughNo, just emotionally intense, honest, and a little self-indulgent.
^^^
Good point JK, and one I totally omitted. When I first heard PH what struck me was the emotional intensity and honesty of what he was doing. Virtually the opposite of pretentiousness. Now of course you could construct a valid argument (as many have) that this is self-indulgent...
P.S. I hope my remarks aren't coming across as pretentious.That's it! VDGG was the first Emo-prog band. Take that and add it to your nomenclature, Progarchives!No, just emotionally intense, honest, and a little self-indulgent.
Makes sense, since I don't care for most of the major Emo bands either, for generally similar reasons.
Watching the two videos posted of the '05 tour solidify in my mind my impression: there are some bands that are just better appreciated live, and VdG is one of them. (King Crimson and the Who [in their heyday] are two other examples.)
Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.
I love the albums but, yeah, they were monstrously fantastic live. I saw the four piece seven times in '05. These vids are great but they don't really convey how stirring the bass pedals sounded or the glorious racket emanating from the stage. Loud and nightmarish at times, but paradoxically a lot of fun (I remember cracking out laughing at certain points, like "how much more fucked up can this sound" during chaotic moments in Black Room or Lemmings). But also heart rending moments of beauty during Refugees or Wondering. It was really electric being there in person, and also to see them in well-attended big theaters / auditoriums. Coming from the U.S. where they're pretty unknown, it was nice to be amongst healthy crowds with the feeling of witnessing a truly happening band. Tons of fun that year, that was my VdGG year, with all the gigs and The Book coming out ;-)
Well, I think we've fully established that what people don't like about VDGG is the vocals
For myself, it was interesting that even after being on the internet for a couple of years, I had still never heard of them when I picked up the box set Supernatural Fairytales, which had the track "Killer" on it. In retrospect, that track is pretty easy listening compared to other stuff on that album and after it. I liked it enough to search out their stuff online and read about a band I'd never heard of before, despite being on a couple prog discussion groups (the name may have come up and I may have just forgotten because it probably came up in the context of something someone didn't like, is my guess now).
The first album I heard was Pawn Hearts and I loved it immediately, mostly because of Hammill's vocals. To me at the time they were just so full on over the top that I couldn't help but love them. I mean, this was what I loved about prog, over the top vocals, over the top arrangements and writing, great playing (even if it does always seem like it's right on the edge of falling apart). I loved the fact that his was a band and singer that just went for it, convention be damned! I still love them, for that matter, though I do greatly miss Jackson's contributions.
For whatever reason, this band just instantly appealed to me. The albums that actually took a few plays to really sink in were Godbluff and Still Life, but they are my 2nd (the latter) and 3rd (the former) favorite albums by VDGG now. World Record is probably their least interesting, but even that has some good stuff on it (I just wish Hammill would have not done that 5 minute guitar solo in Merguleys........it wasn't really very good at all, and for a band that seemed to eschew solos, it made no sense to me.......if anything, it should have been Banton that soloed for 5 minutes as he was obviously the most musically skilled of the bunch of them).
Anyway, these guys for me are above Genesis and Yes in my 70's prog favorites (even though I will always adore both bands almost as much). There's just something about their music, and especially the vocals, that just suits my tastes to a tee. From the beginning though, it was always obvious to me that Hammill's vocals would be a sticking point for a lot of people. Even though I have loved them from the first moment I heard them, his over the top delivery and balls out gusto strike me as something you either love or hate. Fair enough. I love it.
Well, Banton kind of got his chance in the endless ending to "Wondering" where instead of five minutes of awkward noodling we get five minutes of finger exercises.
Hurtleturtled Out of Heaven - an electronic music composition, on CD and vinyl
https://michaelpdawson.bandcamp.com
http://www.waysidemusic.com/Music-Pr...MCD-spc-7.aspx
I know that one is considered a drop off from the previous two (Godbluff and Still Life), and I understand why, but World Record does lead off with When She Comes which (IMO) is a VdGG classic (in my personal top five). A while back I posted another 2005 reunion vid to YouTube of "When She Comes" from their concert at Leicester, England's 'De Montfort Hall' (where part of Genesis' "Live" album from '73 was recorded). I was at this concert, it was mammoth. A sold out show, and the band was on fire.
The vid starts off shaky for the first minute or two, but then it comes together and it *rocks* (and, in that first minute a fan calls out for Johnny B Goode, which the band gets a kick out of!)
Happy to see that Bucka001 shares my love for When She Comes. Happen to think that promoted properly and shortened a bit it could have gotten some radio mileage - that is a killer chorus and I just find the whole thing really catchy.
Yeah, for all the talk of how "difficult" his / their music can be, WSC certainly shows that the man was capable of coming up with a most catchy, wonderfully infectious chorus from time to time!
For any Facebook people, I have a VdGG page I just started up recently (with the band's / his blessing): https://www.facebook.com/vandergraafgeneratorhammill/
Hate and Bile on social media shock!!!
Leave those mediums to the pond life that thrive there.
I'm off to see PH solo in Manchester in April.
Hopefully we'll see one more VDGG tour before time catches up with us all.
I'm in! Great work.
It absolutely is. Always loved that track, and the BBC recording actually rivals the studio one! Masks and A Place To Survive are also very strong. I love World Record, apart from the latter part of Meurglys III.
Interviewer of reprobate ne'er-do-well musicians of the long-haired rock n' roll persuasion at: www.velvetthunder.co.uk and former scribe at Classic Rock Society. Only vaguely aware of anything other than music.
*** Join me in the Garden of Delights for 3 hours of tune-spinning... every Saturday at 5pm EST on Deep Nuggets radio! www.deepnuggets.com ***
Chiming in late, count me among the group that finds Hammill's vocals intolerable. And regardless of how good the music is, I will never be a fan because of that reason.
Brilliant! - around 7'20" into the video, the closest VdGG ever get to the funk!!!
I remember seeing them on this tour - couldn't believe I was actually witnessing them live - & they were stunning! The trio have done impressive things, but live, they just aren't in the same ballpark as the quartet with Jaxon going full pelt.
And I still have the feeling of disbelieving wonder at the prospect of seeing PH in a couple of months - it really is little short of miraculous that even now, he is still putting himself out there, still giving full rein to the *voice*, in shows which cover as much material, with as much intensity, as those from any time in his long career.
For anyone who is a Hammill fan, I'd strongly recommend searching out a bootleg recording of the duo performance with Jaxon for Radio 1's In Concert series, from around 1979 (just after the release of pH7) - the performances by both are astonishing, but it's the way that they are just locked in with one another, almost in the way that jazzers in small bands get to be after years of playing together, that is most striking.
Bit surprising there was no follow-up of Hammill's BBC sessions to accompany that VDGG one a few years back.
I've always felt it was their weakest album since the first, largely due to 'A Place To Survive' (I've never really gelled with this one) and obviously that 'latter part of Meurglys III'. Both are far longer than necessary IMHO.
The other three tracks are admittedly excellent.
Some people here may not have seen this - an excellent recording with very good quality sound - perhaps not quite the best performance from 2005/6 (for me, the Brescia show is hard to beat), but this is pretty much as good a record of the "classic quartet" as one could hope for:
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks