The Challenges facing Startup Prog Bands....

[Tributary Records]

Being around Prog for decades, it seems that the challenges of moving a project forward are increasingly difficult as the years go by. I'm referring here to bands that are actually playing out live, touring etc... not just releasing material via the web.

From conversations I have had with many genre musicians, I am hearing the following...

1. Lack of dedication for any number of reasons, other distractions, families, money etc.
2. No audience.... or not enough to justify working on a project for a year, practicing relentlessly to play for
15 people.
3. Lack of appreciation outside of your own appreciation of accomplishment.
4. Venues not usually booking new Prog.
5. A general lack of motivation for all of the above reasons or more.

I have my own thoughts on the situation. Not trying to rain on a parade of Prog positivity, just hoping to learn more about what others are feeling, experiencing etc... and that identifying certain obstacles, things might move forward with better guidance.

[Haruspex Carnage]

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2014...our-made-much/ an interesting somewhat related article?

[Poisoned Youth]

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2014...our-made-much/ an interesting somewhat related article?

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.

[Poisoned Youth]

From conversations I have had with many genre musicians, I am hearing the following...

1. Lack of dedication for any number of reasons, other distractions, families, money etc.
2. No audience.... or not enough to justify working on a project for a year, practicing relentlessly to play for
15 people.
3. Lack of appreciation outside of your own appreciation of accomplishment.
4. Venues not usually booking new Prog.
5. A general lack of motivation for all of the above reasons or more.

Bands that identify themselves as "prog" are going to find a limited audience by default. This fast moving discussion board can give the impression there's a great deal more interest than there actually is in reality. The concentration of prog fans in most cities is fleeting at best. And many of THOSE fans are aging, with higher spending priorities than seeing live shows - especially from start up bands.

With perceptions again, also consider that NEARFest, the most successful long running festival for your average progger, was able to bring in 1,000 people regularly over the years, in spite of being within arms reach of about 30 million people. ProgDay regularly brings in about 200 and it's been running 20 years now. The "draw" is not what it might seem, even in the success stories. I went to most of the NEARFests over the years. One thing that should not be ignored is that the audience for the last NF was made up of about 50% of the people that went to first few NFs. In other words, the audience didn't change all that much. It was the same people.

But it's not just a progressive rock issues. In the internet and digital age, the great news is that anyone can record some music, upload it to the internet, create a website and FB page, and tour around town. The thing is, everyone is doing just that. So most of these artists suffer, in part, from one of the truisms of our present day - content overload.


Prog artists looking for an audience generally should consider doing these 3 things:

1) Ditch the prog label (why label yourselves anyway - fans take care of that)

2) Play music that people under 30 want to hear (younger fan bases have always driven the music scene)

3) Promote yourself cleverly and relentlessly to THAT audience, not PE, using social media and tools that generation uses.

[Tributary Records]

Bands that identify themselves as "prog" are going to find a limited audience by default. This fast moving discussion board can give the impression there's a great deal more interest than there actually is in reality. The concentration of prog fans in most cities is fleeting at best. And many of THOSE fans are aging, with higher spending priorities than seeing live shows - especially from start up bands.

With perceptions again, also consider that NEARFest, the most successful long running festival for your average progger, was able to bring in 1,000 people regularly over the years, in spite of being within arms reach of about 30 million people. ProgDay regularly brings in about 200 and it's been running 20 years now. The "draw" is not what it might seem, even in the success stories. I went to most of the NEARFests over the years. One thing that should not be ignored is that the audience for the last NF was made up of about 50% of the people that went to first few NFs. In other words, the audience didn't change all that much. It was the same people.

But it's not just a progressive rock issues. In the internet and digital age, the great news is that anyone can record some music, upload it to the internet, create a website and FB page, and tour around town. The thing is, everyone is doing just that. So most of these artists suffer, in part, from one of the truisms of our present day - content overload.


Prog artists looking for an audience generally should consider doing these 3 things:

1) Ditch the prog label (why label yourselves anyway - fans take care of that)

2) Play music that people under 30 want to hear (younger fan bases have always driven the music scene)

3) Promote yourself cleverly and relentlessly to THAT audience, not PE, using social media and tools that generation uses.

A lot of good points.
Do you think a lot of the youth under 30 are listening to Electronica and Hip Hop related genres?

[miamiscot]

The kids will come to their senses at some point. EDM sucks so bad that they will come running back into the arms of real, flesh+blood, guitar-based rock music and then Prog will once again flourish.

Not really.

[Jefferson James]

There is absolutely no justification for someone like me (low level musician and day jobber) to have a prog-rock band other than the fun we have writing music together.

[Haruspex Carnage]

The kids will come to their senses at some point. EDM sucks so bad that they will come running back into the arms of real, flesh+blood, guitar-based rock music and then Prog will once again flourish.

Not really.

This. A friend recently told me to embrace buttons and ditch the strings and skins. In general i realized at about 18 (now soon to be 31) how ridiculous it was for me to pursue my career in the arts (writing and music) to thrive, and have since sold out, knowing it's now an avocation. With Art, Sales, and seemingly that only, is equated with success; quality of a this-has-improved-my-life-and-i've-learned-something too within that, not so much. i guess i'm broad-brushstroking here and i suppose there're always exceptions, but that'll do for now; maybe more later.

[JAMOOL]

A lot of good points.
Do you think a lot of the youth under 30 are listening to Electronica and Hip Hop related genres?

Maybe 10 years ago, yeah

A lot of EDM music is great

I think "prog of the future" is gonna point more in the direction of Max Tundra/Radiohead/Knifeworld than throwback acts like Flower Kings/The Tangent/Glass Hammer. Nothing against those bands obviously but they're clearly led by people who lived through the 70's.

[saucyjackstl]

I make and produce music because I like it. Prog, Alt, Country, Pop, Jazz, no bands should think they will make it in this business. In the 70s the majority of bands never made it big and could never afford music to be their only job, but somehow the number of bands that can has reduced decade by decade. Now there is such a gap between the have and the have-nots that we see posts like this.

There are way too many options for our entertainment. Nobody has to leave their house anymore. I have over 17,000 songs on an ipod that is connected to the speaker systems in every major room in my house. I am constantly listening to music, buying known and unknown music. But unless it is friends of mine, I never go OUT to see live music any more. 90% of my friends simply listen to radio in their car and never think about music outside of that. Putting a CD in the changer would get in the way of the 700 channels on their TV, their netflix downloads, and their net surfing. That's not a criticism, it is the place music as a whole has in our society. The same 20 bands make all the money, because that is the total number of bands most people can name off the top of their head.

[Facelift]

Just some random observations about strategies:

1. Become famous/well-established for making music that isn't prog first. Then, once you have name-recognition, the backing of a major label and 100,000+ fans, start making prog. You'll probably eventually lose your label and most of your fans, but you will have been given the opportunity to play progressive rock professionally for a few years and albums, and on high-quality equipment (on the other hand - who knows; you might be responsible for a progressive rock revival in the mainstream). The positives here are that you get to make money, have all the groupies you can handle, and make prog for a number of years with relative financial security. On the other hand, I would think that this would be extremely difficult to actually accomplish.


2. Don't even think about making money. Don't fret over not getting gigs. Make the best music you're capable of, practice the hell out of it, record it and get it out there. Promote it relentlessly on social media and don't be concerned about people DLing it for free. Operate under the philosophy that "cream will rise to the top eventually." Personally I believe that extraordinary, unique music will eventually get noticed and attract fans, because there are enough people in this world searching for this - they just need to be exposed to it. This route makes for the preservation of artistic integrity. However, most bands can't afford the time it might take to operate in this manner for very long. Also - let's be honest - the end product may not truly be cream. It might be as good as a number of other bands that do have followings, but "extraordinary" is rare by definition, and most bands probably aren't going to ever make anything truly extraordinary or special.


3. Become the best live band that you can and let the rest take care of itself. Make getting gigs your number one priority and, in the beginning, play whatever music is appropriate for the occasion. "Compromise" to the extent that some of the material will have to be accessible and not necessarily prog, but becoming a better live band makes any band a better band, period. If a following is built based on the appeal of the live performances, then that begets more shows, and commercial viability is established for an eventual recording. You may never get all that big, but nobody can say you were cheated out of opportunities to play in front of people, and you will have the opportunity to live the life of a professional musician (even if it's really a second job).

[Brainforest]

Back in ancient times, prog was THE place to go to hear the latest cutting edge synth sounds, production techniques, etc. That's now the domain of EDM. As much as I still love Mellotrons, B3's, 12-string guitars, Minimoogs, etc., they can sound really dated after listing to an EDM artist like Zedd and the way he uses synths. I'm not saying prog would gain acceptance with a younger crowd by going that direction, but it'd sure be a step in the right direction, IMO

[bill g]

There is absolutely no justification for someone like me (low level musician and day jobber) to have a prog-rock band other than the fun we have writing music together.

That's it. For us, we all work full time, so there's little time to play together, practice parts, get proficient at our respective roles, have any time to possibly put together any kind of tour. I even go into the studio rusty. There's about 23 people in the world who absolutely love us, and no one else gives a crap. But there is such enjoyment in writing and producing music we love anyway. As Betty Thatcher once wrote, 'It's not for money and it's not for fame. I just can't explain'

[rickawakeman]

Kevin from Farpoint started a thread recently that addresses some of the same concerns:

http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...-needed-please

[zumacraig]

Good points. The prog world is saturated at this point and there is really nothing separating the bands in terms of sound. It's all reverb, lite metal and less than stellar vocalists. All with a neo bent. If production was better, I'd listen to more of it. Of course this saturation makes the good stuff difficult to find or reveal themselves. Those that do are the old guard like Marillion and Flower Kings. And, of course the classic bands. All of this could be said for any genre these days. Oh so much shit on the internet.

The other issue is that it takes years of road work to become a good band. This doesn't exist anymore.

I am overwhelmed by the amount of music available. Thought it was a godsend initially, but it's done a number on my attention span. The vinyl resurgence is addressing this issue. I'm trying to get back into CDs. It's helping a bit. Getting of the internet helps too.

[dgtlman]

There is absolutely no justification for someone like me (low level musician and day jobber) to have a prog-rock band other than the fun we have writing music together.

That's it. For us, we all work full time, so there's little time to play together, practice parts, get proficient at our respective roles, have any time to possibly put together any kind of tour. I even go into the studio rusty. There's about 23 people in the world who absolutely love us, and no one else gives a crap. But there is such enjoyment in writing and producing music we love anyway. As Betty Thatcher once wrote, 'It's not for money and it's not for fame. I just can't explain'

Being a working stiff is a huge thing obviously and the dedication it takes to put a band together & play shows is enormous. If you have other interests like home improvement projects, children, sports, classic cars, etc., you can basically forget about being in a band. Being in a band is work! Fun yes, but still work. And it takes tons of effort just to keep things together, much less, creating & playing the music you love. Throw "prog" into the mix & I think the level of difficult becomes even harder, due to the complexity of the music.

[Jefferson James]

Being in a band is work! Fun yes, but still work.

If everyone in the band shares the same realistic viewpoint, it's great, but one person who really wants to push things can kill the buzz quickly. I'm committed to one more Heliopolis album but after that my slate is clean as far as commercially releasing music. It's just not worth the effort anymore, for me.

The prog world is saturated at this point and there is really nothing separating the bands in terms of sound.

I agree about the saturation -- it's fucking ridiculous, seriously, like, why do I even bother adding to the din? -- but I hear plenty of bands with different sounds and styles out there. Too much to listen to all of it, of course. I have actual "new music" fatigue sometimes. A 3 minute ambient wind-thru-the-woods intro is a death knell for me, I won't bother listening after a minute, so I miss out on a lot right there but I prefer shit that comes out kicking and screaming.

listing to an EDM artist like Zedd and the way he uses synths.

I was walking around the local lake the other day and some stoner skateboard kids were listening to some absolutely *wild* synth stuff, incredible sounds, weird sounds, exaggerated sounds, elastic sounds, almost unrecognizable as music but there was a beat underneath so it worked. The sounds alone stopped me in my tracks, and I listened for a few moments and realized shit has changed and it's all good. I'm not about to go buy whatever module or program will get me those sounds and change my approach, but I can appreciate and dig that some person somewhere created this really out-there sonic souffle and that the stoner kids were digging it.

[gearHed289]

There is absolutely no justification for someone like me (low level musician and day jobber) to have a prog-rock band other than the fun we have writing music together.

That's it. For us, we all work full time, so there's little time to play together, practice parts, get proficient at our respective roles, have any time to possibly put together any kind of tour. I even go into the studio rusty. There's about 23 people in the world who absolutely love us, and no one else gives a crap. But there is such enjoyment in writing and producing music we love anyway. As Betty Thatcher once wrote, 'It's not for money and it's not for fame. I just can't explain'

I'm in a similar boat. But at this point, at age 52, I am absolutely doing it for the love of doing it. And there's a beautiful freedom in that. I might be going off track here because we (my band Nomadic) are in no way trying to make a career out of this. We simply want to write, rehearse, record, and perform whatever we feel. We're not super prog, but rather a somewhat heavy (not metal) rock band with a lot of odd times and interesting textures and instrumentation. As mentioned above, there's little time to play together. 3 of us have fairly normal day jobs, and our violinist plays and teaches for a living (just landed 1st violin/concert master for "Hamilton", opening in Chicago in September), so we're lucky to see each other for 2 hours per week. It's taking MONTHS to complete a 4 song demo (kind of worth it because our producer does a stellar job), which is holding up getting out there for some gigs. But, it is what it is. Refer to Thatcher quote above!

Being a working stiff is a huge thing obviously and the dedication it takes to put a band together & play shows is enormous. If you have other interests like home improvement projects, children, sports, classic cars, etc., you can basically forget about being in a band. Being in a band is work! Fun yes, but still work. And it takes tons of effort just to keep things together, much less, creating & playing the music you love. Throw "prog" into the mix & I think the level of difficult becomes even harder, due to the complexity of the music.

I totally get what you're saying, but I think it's a bit of an exaggeration, no offense. I have a wife, a daughter, an old house (I usually pay someone else for improvements LOL!), and a modern day hot rod. It takes sacrifices for sure. I haven't had the car on a road course in years, and I get to the drag strip like once a year. My wife and kid understand that I need to do this, or I'll go crazy. I also play in a cover band for fun and profit, about 40 shows a year. It can be done, but it ain't easy! I'm tired...

Good discussion!

[JKL2000]

Maybe 10 years ago, yeah

A lot of EDM music is great

I think "prog of the future" is gonna point more in the direction of Max Tundra/Radiohead/Knifeworld than throwback acts like Flower Kings/The Tangent/Glass Hammer. Nothing against those bands obviously but they're clearly led by people who lived through the 70's.

My son (17) has gotten into newer bands I really don't know that are pretty cool, like Sphongle and Tame Impala

[Sputnik]

I think the root of the issue is the size of the audience. I think the audience for rock music is shrinking, both the audience that pays to listen to it on recordings, and the audience that goes out to see bands play live. There’s been a huge shrinkage of live music venues for all kinds of music, but that is clearly tied to the shrinkage of demand.

So even your average “rock” band has it harder these days (see the article above), and the more you push the audience musically, the fewer listeners you’ll likely get. In some sense, Prog has fared well in that the audience has been sort of “steady” over a roughly 20 year period. That won’t remain the case, however, as this generation of dedicated listeners gets older. There is little audience replenishing.

I also think the rise of filesharing and the inability to sell even a de minimus number of product has an impact. I think a lot of bands in the 90s recognized full well the audience was small, but if they could sell some CDs and play a few gigs, then they could cover the costs associated with their “serious hobby” and be able to provide entertainment to their audience, then it ws worth it. That model doesn’t work anymore, and the disincentive of being able to reasonably release and recoup on new music (which is why most bands get into this style in the first place) then serves as a further disincentive to playing out - or even staying in the game (see Kerry's comments above).

The idea of a startup band playing Prog being a full time, touring band that hopes to make a living off of music is almost preposterous in this day and age. So I think a diminishing of these “serious hobby” type bands hurts the scene. Yeah, there are younger bands playing somewhat more interesting stuff, but this isn’t going to appeal to a large number of the over 45 audience.

So in a sense, you’re starting from scratch, which may be the way it should be. You’re not really going to build a scene around the existing “Prog” audience, they’re too old and there are too few of them. May as well drop the “Prog” moniker as well at that point, it certainly hasn’t done the classic music much good, why saddle another generation with that anchor?

Bill

[Yodelgoat]

Just play the music, and let it be the reward. No one cares about new prog bands. Its not like we were in the 60's and 70's where we couldn't wait for the next release. Those were great times for those of us who lived through it. Music is still as important to me as it ever has been, but I dont tend to respect bands or artists who put out a new release, and expect everyone to be impressed enough to stop what they are doing and pay attention to them. If something is good, I expect that there will be a buzz about it, somewhere and I tend to pick up on the buzz and give it a shot. Sometimes it works out and I have something new to add to my collection, which I listen to with great affection. But to expect me to be automatically impressed? - I sometimes meet young musicians, and they have this Hollywood image of the "rock star" is how it really is, and I just laugh. It never was that way, it is certainly not that way now, and it will never be that way - ever.

Tell me about new music and I'll sometimes give it my ear, but there are precious few modern, new musicians who have honed their craft to a point where I respect their musicianship, and then actually like what they are producing. I have bought into some bands in the past few years, that at first I thought I could really enjoy, but I have come to the conclusion that there will not be any more Led Zeppelins, or Who's, or even Dream Theaters. If there are, I will find them, and I will support them, but lets face it... Young musicians are a dime a dozen, and are not committed to their craft as musicians in earlier days were.

PLEASE, Tell me how wrong I am. I want to hear good new music. It doesnt even have to break new ground for me, just rototill up some of the old earth and give me another 1970-1977. My kids all agree that "Dad's music is the best". So they proceed to "borrow" and rip my music, not realizing they are assuring that there will never be another Genesis, ELP, Rush or Yes...

"What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly"

I have little faith that this can be fixed. I am starting to hear from other genres that have the same problems - Even Rap is becoming less and less meaningful to its constituents. These days, If you are a Rapper, you'd better have a line of clothing to push along with your music, or you wont make it.

[Gravedigger]

As far as newer bands, I wonder how many of them have members who only dedicate their time and playing
to that one band? I have seen some bands where every bandmember is involved in something else, which
could maybe dilute the band's focus? I know its great to play with as many people as possible for experience,
but if you're *really* trying to do something with your band, everyone needs to contribute fully... imo.

[arabicadabra]

Every time I think I'm about to crystallize my thoughts on a subject, Kerry does it better than I was about to. The "no appreciation other than yourselves" factor in the OP made me ask myself "why would I need anyone else to appreciate it?" The first several years in Pinnacle, we felt like the Rodney Dangerfields of prog. Then, finally, we got a great singer and suddenly, people start digging us. I may have wished I didn't care, but I discovered that I did.

There is absolutely no justification for someone like me (low level musician and day jobber) to have a prog-rock band other than the fun we have writing music together.

[Tributary Records]

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2014...our-made-much/ an interesting somewhat related article?

A marketing scam? He's the CEO of this crowdfunding company?

http://gawker.com/indie-musicians-vi...unt-1665409710

[Tributary Records]

Maybe 10 years ago, yeah

A lot of EDM music is great

I think "prog of the future" is gonna point more in the direction of Max Tundra/Radiohead/Knifeworld than throwback acts like Flower Kings/The Tangent/Glass Hammer. Nothing against those bands obviously but they're clearly led by people who lived through the 70's.

Do you think EDM is just a completely different process? I mean there are people making that music that have never played an instrument. Is it not really just digital sound collages? It is what it is, and of course people will love it.... just as people enjoy photoshop manipulation, compared to a schooled artist - painter with a brush etc...