Rock Improvisation discussion

[Poisoned Youth]

Steve F's line about SaBB being "the rock improvisation of the 70s", got me thinking about how there don't seem to be lots of really excellent rock albums that have solid tracks of full improv - especially in the rock idiom.

While not traditionally rock musicians, I always found this particular release by Gregg Bendian and company, Bone Structure, to be a fine modern example of rock improvisation - sounding quite like something Crimson might have done on this album on more than one occasion.



What other great examples from back in the day and today represent full-on rock improvisation? I'm not looking for a list of every example that ever existed. I'm mostly interested in a discussion about rock groups who improvised to the magnitude of a band like Crimson.

[Trane]

During the 70's, Sweet Smoke was certainly renown for its improvisations, though more accessible

(see this post as a bookmark, just in case it goes private land )

[walt]

Altered States(Japan) is the epitome of power trio improvisation(they call it "spontaneous composition"),imo.AS brings an experimental slant to the proceedings,but when they get in a rocking groove....man, they are outasight.I wish there were clips from their most recent cd's,particularly Live In Tokyo.These clips, if they existed, would support my contention far better than my fumbling words.


I believe that the best improvising in rock is made by working groups(as in jazz).Which is not to say that ad hoc,one off associations have not,at times made great improvised music.I just feel that improvs work best when the musicians are familiar with each others instrumental predilictions, to the degree that they can anticipate, respond and interact in real time.

[zravkapt]

AMM could be described as the first rock improv group, although it's debatable how 'rock' they are. A great group from the '80s featuring Sonny Sharrock, Bill Laswell, Peter Brozman and Ronald Shannon Jackson was Last Exit (not to be confused with the fusion band Sting was in before The Police).



A more modern group is Wolf Eyes. They are influenced by industrial, punk and dub.

[JKL2000]

I'm really not familiar with Colloseum, but didn't they get up to this stuff at some stages?

[spiderfeathers]

The most obvious example I think is Can.

[battema]

Kiruna - Terasarus should appeal to anyone who liked the improv style of '73-74 Crimson.

I'll also note Supersilent although they may be seen as more jazz than rock.

[Steve F.]

The following did it more or less and did it more or less successfully with full tracks of full improv in the 70s
NOT a lot of them


Henry Cow
King Crimson
Mothers Of Invention
The Muffins
Soft Machine
Zamla

I could add many more if the ground rule wasn't full tracks released.

I had a conversation in the 70s during Cow's tenure with Chris Cutler who was poo-pooing my love for King Crimson and I said, "ROCK improvisation! There's you, there's Soft Machine and there's King Crimson. Who else?"

He didn't have an answer...

[Mascodagama]

Steve F's line about SaBB being "the rock improvisation of the 70s", got me thinking about how there don't seem to be lots of really excellent rock albums that have solid tracks of full improv - especially in the rock idiom.

While not traditionally rock musicians, I always found this particular release by Gregg Bendian and company, Bone Structure, to be a fine modern example of rock improvisation - sounding quite like something Crimson might have done on this album on more than one occasion.

The Cryptogramophone label put out a bunch of good stuff in this vein. I particularly like the three albums by Gregg Bendian's Interzone.

[Steve F.]

I see we aren't completely discussing the 70s in this thread.



I don't know their catalog well enough to know if there are complete released tracks of improvisation, but The Grateful Dead might also be part of this.

[at least 100 dead]

The most obvious example I think is Can.

Yup and they did not just "jam"...

[Mascodagama]

Fushitsusha, Keiji Haino's group, deserve a mention here. Though their penchant for hour-long noise fests probably limits their appeal to most.

[Trane]

I see we aren't completely discussing the 70s in this thread.



I don't know their catalog well enough to know if there are complete released tracks of improvisation, but The Grateful Dead might also be part of this.

Even the Airplane engaged in improv/jams, mainly the Hot Tuna guys...
So did QMS if you go by Happy Trails (their second album)
But Zep & Purple did too...

All of it was fairly accessible to mainstream crowds compared to the stuff you lissted in your first post on this thread.

[Steve F.]

Trane,

Did they do FULL improvisations (not jams in a structure, but full on improvisations) that were RELEASED on official albums back in the day?

Zep didn't do full on improvs. Definitely not. I know their catalog well enough to state that.
QMS jammed around structure, unless you know albums I don't (and iirc, Happy Trails is all jamming around structure).

That's not what Cozy is asking.

[Mascodagama]

I had a conversation in the 70s during Cow's tenure with Chris Cutler who was poo-pooing my love for King Crimson and I said, "ROCK improvisation! There's you, there's Soft Machine and there's King Crimson. Who else?"

He didn't have an answer...

I recall reading something Cutler wrote in which he castigated (I think) John Wetton for having made remarks to the effect that KC was the first proper improvising rock band, and I can see why that would have got up his nose! But I also think he's always had a fairly snobbish / puritanical attitude towards the more mainstream British prog bands.

[Steve F.]

I recall reading something Cutler wrote in which he castigated (I think) John Wetton for having made remarks to the effect that KC was the first proper improvising rock band, and I can see why that would have got up his nose! But I also think he's always had a fairly snobbish / puritanical attitude towards the more mainstream British prog bands.

Yes, I agree.

But my point to him and all my postings in the other thread were that, in that period, KC had large aspects about them that were most definitely not mainstream prog band aspects. And it was 100% on purpose.

[at least 100 dead]

Zep jammed a lot, but I can't think of any instance where they engaged in full group improv. Unlike e.g. Amon Duul II with Phallus Dei or "The Marilyn Monroe Memorial Church"...

[Steve F.]

Good call on Amon Duul II. They definitely deserve to be on the list.
Zep? Not in my opinion.

[Mascodagama]

Yes, I agree.

But my point to him and all my postings in the other thread were that, in that period, KC had large aspects about them that were most definitely not mainstream prog band aspects. And it was 100% on purpose.

Oh yeah, definitely. I have more live recordings of KC from that period - that I actually listen to - than any other band. They wouldn't have passed the ideological and musical purity tests for RIO, but they were pushing out in their own direction as hard as they could and the results were often pretty great.

[Mascodagama]

Borbetomagus? Or not enough "rock" to qualify...

[Steve F.]

Borbetomagus? Or not enough "rock" to qualify...

Not enough 'rock' imo.

[Steve F.]

They wouldn't have passed the ideological and musical purity tests for RIO...

Bingo. One of the problems with the original R.I.O movement.

Despite all the good music, it was set up to be exclusionary, rather than inclusionary.

IMO.

[Mascodagama]

Inspired by this thread I've just put on Ray Russell's Live at the ICA. Though it's really free jazz with howling guitar, rather than rock improvisation.

[Steve F.]

^ ^ ^ ^

Ray's the fucking greatest. And a wonderful guy too!

but I agree he doesn't strictly belong in this thread.

[zombywoof]

For my money, Crimson's improvs tended to be more 'rock' than Cow and more interesting to listen to.