How did Frank Zappa view rap and hip hop?

[WytchCrypt]

If I remember correctly from what i read about 25 years ago (I think in the Real Frank Zappa Book), he disliked all the press coverage the San Francisco crowd got because they were "too beautiful", whatever that's supposed to mean. Frank apparently felt, for whatever reason, that the LA scene, which I believe he referred to as the "freak scene" was somehow more interesting. I recall he said something about it being more uglier, therefore it was better (again, a great big shrug from me on that one).

From Tinseltown Rebellion's 'Dance Contest':

"I have an important message to deliver to all the cute people all over the world. If you're out there and you're cute, maybe you're beautiful, I just want to tell you somethin'-there's more of us ugly mother-*&^%ers than you are, hey-y, so watch out."

[Adm.Kirk]

While rap had been around for a few years, Zappa did not live to see the rise of Gangsta Rap. The Biggie Smalls, Tupacs and 50 Cents of the world had not shown up. For the most part, rap was political or had a somewhat humorous angle (Run DMC/Aerosmith for example) when Zappa was alive. It was the whole Gangsta Rap scene that made such headlines later in the 90's. I would be interested in knowing how Frank would have felt about that, had he lived.

Bill

[infandous]

Frank was an intelligent guy and a great musician. He could be witty and clever with his satire. I love his music - it's been a huge part of my life.

But, I don't think he had a very consistent philosophy, socially or politically, that gets a whole lot much more sophisticated than that he liked to thumb his nose at various institutions, and he would resort to lazy general cynicism (variants on "everything sucks and nobody is right") when he couldn't be bothered to give a matter any more of his attention.

I don't want that to read as being anything less than I mean it to, though; for example, when a person of intelligence and insight thumbs his nose at something, it has the likelihood of being a lot more interesting than if the same is being done by someone with less tools. Still, if that becomes one's MO, I can empathize with people who find it tiring after awhile.

To that end, one unfortunate result of Frank coming along when he did, is that attraction he had to the sexual and perverse. It was because Frank realized how potent that stuff was (at the time) to offend and anger a segment of America that he disliked, that he went to that well so often. I have to believe that if he came about at a later time, that this would have played much less of a role in his music and that the music would have been better for it.

Well, if you read some of the books about Frank not written by Frank, it becomes apparent that he was quite focused on sex in his personal life. I can't speak to the veracity of those books, but they are pretty consistent in that regard. I don't think him coming about at a later time would have necessarily changed that at all (if it did, he wouldn't have been the Frank Zappa we knew and loved and still do). Popular culture has only become even more sex focused since the 60's anyway, not less.

[Phlakaton]

I'm not sure if I ever really read or heard of Frank commenting on rap or hip-hop past maybe an "eh..." or "I dont know"

[Facelift]

While rap had been around for a few years, Zappa did not live to see the rise of Gangsta Rap. The Biggie Smalls, Tupacs and 50 Cents of the world had not shown up. For the most part, rap was political or had a somewhat humorous angle (Run DMC/Aerosmith for example) when Zappa was alive. It was the whole Gangsta Rap scene that made such headlines later in the 90's. I would be interested in knowing how Frank would have felt about that, had he lived.

Bill

Gangsta-rap existed since the mid-'80s and attained popularity in the late '80s. Most of the major gangsta-rap albums had already been released by the time Zappa died, and much of the hip-hop scene of 1993 was dominated by Dre. Dre and Snoop Dog. If he was paying any attention to popular music at all, he would have known about gangsta-rap.

[pb2015]

From the comments I've read I think Zappa was mainly working on his Synclavier composing and listening to old avant garde classical, blues and doo wop rather than popular music, by the time rap was going strong.

There was one call-in show from 1993 where a guy who later became a friend of mine asked Zappa if he liked any new groups, and Zappa mentioned a few songs by comedic alt-rock bands like King Missile.

[Facelift]

From the comments I've read I think Zappa was mainly working on his Synclavier composing and listening to old avant garde classical, blues and doo wop rather than popular music, by the time rap was going strong.

There was one call-in show from 1993 where a guy who later became a friend of mine asked Zappa if he liked any new groups, and Zappa mentioned a few songs by comedic alt-rock bands like King Missile.

Yes, by all accounts that I've heard/read, Zappa had kind of checked out of the popular music/rock and roll thing after his 1988 tour.

It's probably for the best that he never appropriated or satirized hip-hop.

[WytchCrypt]

While rap had been around for a few years, Zappa did not live to see the rise of Gangsta Rap. The Biggie Smalls, Tupacs and 50 Cents of the world had not shown up. For the most part, rap was political or had a somewhat humorous angle (Run DMC/Aerosmith for example) when Zappa was alive. It was the whole Gangsta Rap scene that made such headlines later in the 90's. I would be interested in knowing how Frank would have felt about that, had he lived.

Bill

Wouldn't surprise me if FZ supported the "freedom of speech" aspect of rap (he'd have to...otherwise his PMRC testimony would have been blatantly hypocritical) but would have had a satirical field day poking fun at the...ahem..."musical" aspects of the genre...much like he did with disco

[mjudge]

If I remember correctly from what i read about 25 years ago (I think in the Real Frank Zappa Book), he disliked all the press coverage the San Francisco crowd got because they were "too beautiful", whatever that's supposed to mean. Frank apparently felt, for whatever reason, that the LA scene, which I believe he referred to as the "freak scene" was somehow more interesting. I recall he said something about it being more uglier, therefore it was better (again, a great big shrug from me on that one).

So Frank didn't hate the counterculture movement, he just thought that the scene he came from was better than the more famous, apparently more beautiful scene up north a bit.

I gather the "beautiful"/"ugly" thing was a capsule form of his protest that the San Francisco hippies were essentially a cutesy, superficial, fashion-obedient, commercialized version of a real counterculture, and that they got all the press attention and subsequent money and fame because they were much easier to market on a mass scale and to a mass audience than were the genuinely transgressive weirdos around the L.A. scene.

[zravkapt]

Remember that show in Finland where somebody wanted Frank to play an Allman Brothers song? He didn't know it. The guy never really paid attention or cared about what was popular at the time.

[ronmac]

Remember that show in Finland where somebody wanted Frank to play an Allman Brothers song? He didn't know it. The guy never really paid attention or cared about what was popular at the time.

You mean "Whipping Post," which he played more than once? I saw him play it in Philly.

[ronmac]

Frank seemed to be aware of what was going on at the time. It's evidenced by his live material, where he often wove in vignettes of current songs. He certainly wrote songs about artists at the time. "He's So Gay" is one that immediately comes to mind, and appeared to be about Boy George, where he ended it with, "Do you really want to hurt me?"

[Lino]

Frank wouldn't have a problem with it. Why would he?

[pb2015]

You mean "Whipping Post," which he played more than once? I saw him play it in Philly.

A few years after that Finland show he decided to have the band learn "Whipping Post" (after Bobby Martin who had experience performing the song in bar bands joined Zappa's group).

[StevegSr]

The MOI did parody hippy culture in We're Only In It For the Money, but if you really listen to the album, the targets are exceedingly local - the idea that Zappa didn't care for the counterculture in general is ridiculous, because he was part of it.

Yes, I meant Were Only In It For the Money, my bad. But who thinks that Zappa didn't care about the counterculture?

As you stated, his albums were parodies, and if Zappa didn't understand the cult of personality, then no one did.

[GuitarGeek]

You mean "Whipping Post," which he played more than once? I saw him play it in Philly.

Frank playd the song regularly in the 80's, and the reason he played it was because of that guy in Helsinki who yelled out the request. I remember Frank telling this story in his Guitar Player cover story back in the February 1983 issue (I think it was February). By the time You Can't Do That Onstage Anymore Vol. 2 came out, it was already "old news" to me, because of that article.

Anyway, Frank said it always bothered him that they could just throw the song out there and blow the guy out of his shoes. Apparently, Bobby Martin was the one who actually knew how to play the song, so when Frank found out about that, he had him teach the band how to do it, so that "we'll be ready the next time someone requests it".

[GuitarGeek]

I gather the "beautiful"/"ugly" thing was a capsule form of his protest that the San Francisco hippies were essentially a cutesy, superficial, fashion-obedient, commercialized version of a real counterculture, and that they got all the press attention and subsequent money and fame because they were much easier to market on a mass scale and to a mass audience than were the genuinely transgressive weirdos around the L.A. scene.

And exactly what was oh so transgressive about the "weirdos" in LA, as compared to the San Francisco? Just because they were "ugly motherfuckers" or didn't wear bright colours or whatever?!

[GuitarGeek]

Frank seemed to be aware of what was going on at the time. It's evidenced by his live material, where he often wove in vignettes of current songs.

He certainly knew enough about what was going on in popular music in 1984 to take swipes at both Culture Club and Scorpions on the live version of Tinseltown Rebellion (he takes a shot at Devo, but that was kind of antiquated, in pop culture terms, by 1984).

[Garion81]

The hippie movement, the turn on, tune in and drop out movement started in San Francisco. LA was a bit darker as the communes produced Charles Manson for example ( I don't mean all of them) even the music was from the commercial end Steppenwolf and The Doors being prime examples. Frank grew up in the dessert east of LA and the biggest city out there was San Bernardino. There were no hippies out there just red necks and military people where people got drunk in stripper bars and went to jail frequently.

In my humble opinion, I believe that Frank was making fun of was the bands and the music and all the companies that grew up around it and made lots of money off of it while not really being part of it (Were Only In It For the Money). Maybe Frank didn't care for the hippies either but I think what he hated most was the hypocrisy. Just like the religious right and Al and Tipper Gore and their censorship campaign. He was a very skeptical man. I have no idea what Frank would think about hip hop or Rap or Gangsta Rap. I thinking for some of it he would not like the sampling of other music and would rather have people make something original.

[Trane]

And exactly what was oh so transgressive about the "weirdos" in LA, as compared to the San Francisco? Just because they were "ugly motherfuckers" or didn't wear bright colours or whatever?!

as Garion/Brian explains below, something about LA was a more dangerous scene... Prowlers, exploiters and lurkers always existed on the Sunset Strip ... Frisco was kind of virgin of that in the mid-60's.

Also, Frisco bands didn't have local recording facilities (that didn't come until 73, I think), they had to travel to LA to make albums.... Which probably made them look ridiculous to local Angels with their flowery attires and looks

The hippie movement, the turn on, tune in and drop out movement started in San Francisco. LA was a bit darker as the communes produced Charles Manson for example ( I don't mean all of them) even the music was from the commercial end Steppenwolf and The Doors being prime examples. Frank grew up in the dessert east of LA and the biggest city out there was San Bernardino. There were no hippies out there just red necks and military people where people got drunk in stripper bars and went to jail frequently.

In my humble opinion, I believe that Frank was making fun of was the bands and the music and all the companies that grew up around it and made lots of money off of it while not really being part of it (Were Only In It For the Money). Maybe Frank didn't care for the hippies either but I think what he hated most was the hypocrisy. Just like the religious right and Al and Tipper Gore and their censorship campaign. He was a very skeptical man. I have no idea what Frank would think about hip hop or Rap or Gangsta Rap. I thinking for some of it he would not like the sampling of other music and would rather have people make something original.

To think that this Al Gore dickhead came "to his senses" recently with his plight to save the planet (and even hitting the silver screen with his environmental movie), he must've had some kind of hippy way of life inconsciously imbedded into him

JK, of course.

[moecurlythanu]

Charles Manson had a criminal record a mile long, with much prison time, before he ever found the hippies. They were merely a tool whose naivete could be exploited.
I wouldn't say the SF counterculture "produced" Manson.

[ronmac]

Charles Manson had a criminal record a mile long, with much prison time, before he ever found the hippies. They were merely a tool whose naivete could be exploited.
I wouldn't say the SF counterculture "produced" Manson.

QFT.

[Phlakaton]

Charles Manson had a criminal record a mile long, with much prison time, before he ever found the hippies. They were merely a tool whose naivete could be exploited.
I wouldn't say the SF counterculture "produced" Manson.

If only he would have been signed to a record deal... might have never made the mess he did. :P

[Mister Triscuits]

Also, Frisco bands didn't have local recording facilities (that didn't come until 73, I think)

Much earlier than that. I speak as someone who lives within spitting distance of the former location of Pacific Recorders in San Mateo, where the Grateful Dead made Aoxomoxoa in 1968 and Santana made their first album in 1969. Wally Heider's studio was also open by 1969; there were also Coast Recording in SF and Fantasy Studios in Berkeley (Wiki says they opened in 1971, but Creedence made Willy and the Poor Boys there in 1969) among others. Jefferson Airplane made all their early records in Hollywood because they were signed to RCA, not because there were no options closer to home.

[Trane]

Much earlier than that. I speak as someone who lives within spitting distance of the former location of Pacific Recorders in San Mateo, where the Grateful Dead made Aoxomoxoa in 1968 and Santana made their first album in 1969. Wally Heider's studio was also open by 1969; there were also Coast Recording in SF and Fantasy Studios in Berkeley (Wiki says they opened in 1971, but Creedence made Willy and the Poor Boys there in 1969) among others. Jefferson Airplane made all their early records in Hollywood because they were signed to RCA, not because there were no options closer to home.

Mhhh!!!... You probably know this better than I since, my knowledge comes from what I read in a few books (I think Got A Revolution might have been one of them, where I read that)