ELP albums after Brain Salad Surgery: How do you rate them?

[The Dark Elf]

Just for the record, Triumvirat managed to place an album in the US Top 40, something that Genesis with Gabriel never did.

The Lamb hit #41, 'tis true, but Trick was #31, Wind and Wuthering was #26, ATTWT was #14 and Duke was #11. Talk about consistent improvement, chart-wise. I remember people in the U.S. catching on around Lamb and then getting into SEbtP and Foxtrot and Trick (Trick was big in my high school, and conversely so was Gabriel's "Car"!). It also must be said that Genesis was hugely popular in Britain: Foxtrot #12, SeBtP #3, Lamb #10 and Trick #3.

[Rarebird]

Speaking of overcompensation for a wee flaccid member.

You speak of "'70s third-rate prog bands" and then list several UK, PFM, Le Orme, Focus, Trace, Ekseption, Triumvirat. Except for Focus, did any of these bands actually sell an album? There are reasons bands are obscure, and it often has nothing to do with anything other than richly deserving the obscurity they receive.

Well, Ekseption had some hits in The Netherlands and they were pretty big on the mainland of Europe, playing in Greece and Israel. Not everthing turns around the US.
Other bands also had quite some success their home countries and in the end that's what counts. US and GB were always less open for music from countries, that hadn't English as their mother-tongue. You still see this mentality. People complaining about foreign accents in music from non English speaking countries and if they sing in their mother-tongue, the complaint is, their lyrics can't be understand. The main reason Focus did well in the US and GB was that they were mainly instrumental and the yodeling didn't matter.

[JJ88]

The Lamb hit #41, 'tis true, but Trick was #31, Wind and Wuthering was #26, ATTWT was #14 and Duke was #11. Talk about consistent improvement, chart-wise. I remember people in the U.S. catching on around Lamb and then getting into SEbtP and Foxtrot and Trick (Trick was big in my high school, and conversely so was Gabriel's "Car"!). It also must be said that Genesis was hugely popular in Britain: Foxtrot #12, SeBtP #3, Lamb #10 and Trick #3.

The first Genesis live album also charted in the Top 10 in the UK...it was a budget-price release but before Rufus dives in, so was Pictures At An Exhibition.

[Rick Robson]

Other bands also had quite some success their home countries and in the end that's what counts. US and GB were always less open for music from countries, that hadn't English as their mother-tongue. You still see this mentality. People complaining about foreign accents in music from non English speaking countries and if they sing in their mother-tongue, the complaint is, their lyrics can't be understand.

Agreed with your input, even though this is the first time that I hear it on this forum. If Kayak were english I'm pretty sure they would be much more well-known outside their country. And I'm recalling now your quite interesting suggestion given on this forum: Ton Scherpenzeel, I'm still in debt with purchasing 'Le Carnaval des Animaux', go figure... but it for sure doesn't move backwards on my wishlist

[Rick Robson]

^And one of the reasons why US and UK Top charts were never worth it as standpoint for highlighting great bands world-wise - not only Triumvirat but also Goblin, Latte e Miele, Il Rovescio Della Medaglia, Grobschnitt and many others deserved much more recognition, sure pretty overlooked.

[JKL2000]

I think "Daddy" off of "In the Hot Seat" should have been a more blistering, balls-out, instrumental number that just didn't let go for 8-10 minutes.

[Yodelgoat]

It is weird isnt it? my memories are that Brain Salad kind of placed ELP on a much higher level - commercially speaking I recall my girlfriend at the time, suddenly really started liking them, which was kind of a surprise - it seems that the Label decided to turn them into pop stars, I recall Greg Lake suddenly becoming every girls wet dream, and they basically were turned into pretty boy, crappy pop act. Instead of what made them famous to begin with. Success, it appears begets labels to suddenly want to turn that success into bags of money, and instead turns the genuine success into some kind of obnoxious pop tripe. It like the labels cannot help themselves, To them, being successful means you look, act and play like you're Keith Partridge, and the girls all scream and chase you around, want to tear off your clothes... Its so moronic, they just have to turn it from something successful into something worthy only of derision.

[A. Scherze]

Speaking of overcompensation for a wee flaccid member.

You speak of "'70s third-rate prog bands" and then list several UK, PFM, Le Orme, Focus, Trace, Ekseption, Triumvirat. Except for Focus, did any of these bands actually sell an album? There are reasons bands are obscure, and it often has nothing to do with anything other than richly deserving the obscurity they receive.

In regards to English Electric, I would say you are once again in the wee minority in regards to your opinion. I've seen nothing but positive comments from prog fans. But again, this is your opinion, and no matter how you are laughed at and reviled, you'll hold to it. Because admitting you were wrong, terribly so, would only cause you to use an even larger font size to compensate.

In regards to objectivity, anyone who knows me here and on other music forums is aware that I am no Genesis apologist; however, I have to admit that many of their compositions are stunningly beautiful and quite complicated from both a guitar and keyboard standpoint. I gave you a list of excellent compositions in a previous post. The songs are intricate, the lyrics are certainly far better than the pompous drivel of ELP or the New Age Hindo-Buddhist claptrap of Jon Anderson, they were not quasi-prog or prog wannabes as you wrongly claim, and even you had to admit that Phil Collins' drumming is awesome. And I would suggest a band that could recruit both Bill Bruford and Chester Thompson is elite.

So, what is it exactly about them that gets your panties in such a bunch?


It certainly was in Michigan where I lived in the 70s. By the time The Lamb came out, they were huge. Again, I saw them in '76, they were spectacular.

Hmm. Insults regarding my penis dimension and wearing women's undergarments. Sure signs of two things - you don't have a defense of your arguments and you do have a wee bairn of a brain.

Which you then demonstrate by equating sales with quality.

You harangue me for my rating of Genesis, but then you do the same thing to a half-dozen high quality bands all of whom feature better music and musicianship than Genesis.

I assume that your slagging of ELP and Yes lyrics as some extremely lame attempt at humor. Plus, it points up that only Genesis' words can compare to the them because the music can't.

You ask me for objectivity, but when I ask you, you respond with claptrap and folderol.

You claim you are "no Genesis apologist", but you defend over and over again. (Which you continue to do.)

I might possibly respond about a Genesis song, "Selling England By The Pound" ... if they had ever written it.

After the heavy playing involved with Yes and King Crimson, Bruford needed a restful job where he could relax while getting a paycheck.

BTW, I attempted to listen to Teeny Tiny Choo Choo, but it was such delirious, derivative drivel, that I laughed out loud while simultaneously purging the contents of my stomach. A most unpleasant experience, but still preferable than listening to the rest of the album or Genesis.

[Rick Robson]

Corporative mindsets equate sales (as well as ratings and votes) with quality. They paved the way to disposable music in the download age.

[lak611]

I think there are plenty of big ELP fans here, myself included. But one cannot deny the band changed their sound upon Works, and then in later years were lost for a direction. A few sporadic albums with short lived different line-ups. I have heard Greg Lake talk about how he wanted ELP too follow the model of Genesis, going from very proggy to more mainstream intelligent pop, with prog flourishes. Though obviously ELP was never successful at achieving a hit record in that vein as Genesis (or YES) did. I'm not a fan of the mainstream Genesis or YES, so a mainstream sounding ELP never worked well for me... though I enjoy a few tracks off of each release.

From knowing Keith personally and working with him, I can tell you Greg & Carl argued with Keith about every stupid ass detail, and he would give in just to move forward. Or it would fall dead on the tracks as the band always did. Then look, Keith finally forms his own band KEB and produces an album more closely resembles a 70's style ELP album. I worked with Keith at that time, and man was he excited about this album!! Marc Bonilla worked hard pushing Keith to capture more of his classic style, with more vintage sounds for this release. Yet still keeping it modern with a harder edge. Keith felt the KEB album was a culmination of his entire career, he told me this personally. I think the album fell a tad short of expressing that, but it is a great effort for sure and a damn fine album, that I'm sure will only grow in appreciation when you weigh in his whole career in retrospect.

That's actually an OK album. However, I'm not fond of Marc Bonilla's guitar style (too much "shredding") or vocals (too "rawk"). I would probably have enjoyed KEB better had Dave Kilminster stayed instead of having Bonilla.

[happytheman]

It is weird isnt it? my memories are that Brain Salad kind of placed ELP on a much higher level - commercially speaking I recall my girlfriend at the time, suddenly really started liking them, which was kind of a surprise - it seems that the Label decided to turn them into pop stars, I recall Greg Lake suddenly becoming every girls wet dream, and they basically were turned into pretty boy, crappy pop act. Instead of what made them famous to begin with. Success, it appears begets labels to suddenly want to turn that success into bags of money, and instead turns the genuine success into some kind of obnoxious pop tripe. It like the labels cannot help themselves, To them, being successful means you look, act and play like you're Keith Partridge, and the girls all scream and chase you around, want to tear off your clothes... Its so moronic, they just have to turn it from something successful into something worthy only of derision.

If you've read Keith's book.. there were plenty of "groupies" right from the beginning..

[lak611]

If you've read Keith's book.. there were plenty of "groupies" right from the beginning..

That's true. In Keith's case it actually started when he was in The Nice and didn't know the difference between a groupie and a girlfriend, and he actually proposed to a groupie who gave him VD.