Triumvirat

[80s were ok]

People talk about ELP as if they are the kings of originality when in fact ELP's music is mostly ripped off from other composers....

i think you need some new glasses to read the writting credits on all the ELP albums.

[sonic]

i think you need some new glasses to read the writting credits on all the ELP albums.

They didn't credit everyone ... much like Led Zep
Some examples:
ELP rip offs:
The Barbarian = Bela Bartok's Allegro Barbaro
Knife Edge = Sinfonietta by Janacek plus a Bach excerpt.

[A. Scherze]

taste

Taste means playing by the rules.

An aphorism: Saying a musician has "taste" is a compliment to an entertainer, but an insult to an artist.

[sonic]

Quote:

When Triumvirat were touring the States, Jurgen Fritz was interviewed and asked "that question"-What do you think of all the talk about Triumvirat sounding like ELP, and he responded "Well, i'm flattered. But there are aspects of Triumvirat's sound that are similar to ELP, and aspects that are different."

[80s were ok]

They didn't credit everyone ... much like Led Zep
Some examples:
ELP rip offs:
The Barbarian = Bela Bartok's Allegro Barbaro
Knife Edge = Sinfonietta by Janacek plus a Bach excerpt.

I think those were corrected in later pressings. Plus I was refering to all the songs that THEY DID write. To say ELP is mostly a "covers" band is just ridiculous.

[Scrotum Scissor]

The influence is there, but these guys are far from copycats.

I should have pointed specifically to the debut, not Between the Universes. The debut has a definite flair of ELP, not only in arrangements, chord progressions, synth piruettas and overall sound, but in general concept; the bombast contrasted with the odd acoustic tune, the deliberately silly take on the schlager (here: a nonsensical version of "Lady Madonna", as opposed to a throwaway "Nutrocker") etc. But for the record: I don't really dislike Tritonus either.

[A. Scherze]

Funny how "defenders" of this practice never actually defend it, but instead try to argue that the person being ripped off was ripping somebody off. Hence, citing the obvious lift is somehow "ironic" or unjustified.

Jeff, you made the assertion. It's up to you to prove it. So, instead of telling us what you believe, show us evidence. Post notation of the two relevant sections and let us compare them. Maybe some subsidiary stuff like Fritz talking about John.

[sonic]

I should have pointed specifically to the debut, not Between the Universes.

You're right. Listening to it on Youtube, the ELP influence is much heavier on the debut.

[A. Scherze]

And I still prefer groups like Hoelderlin and Novalis over Yes and Genesis.

Most prog bands are better than Genesis.

The other night I had Aural Moon on while I slept. In the middle of the night, I jolted awake. They had just started to play Supper's Ready and I was forced to get up and turn it off.

[JeffCarney]

Jeff, you made the assertion. It's up to you to prove it. So, instead of telling us what you believe, show us evidence. Post notation of the two relevant sections and let us compare them. Maybe some subsidiary stuff like Fritz talking about John.

I'm sorry but I don't really follow what it is you are requesting/asking of me.

Feel free to be more clear, or just skip it.

[JeffCarney]

I don't hear that much simularities between Triumvirat and ELP.

Agreed

If you two have listened to KE9 and OLDH without noticing ripoff after ripoff in terms of style, structure, tone ... gosh, everything down to drum fills and finales, I think Triumvirat would be dissapointed.

, and I feel the same way about Le Orme-ELP comparisons, which is the height of lazy comparisons, IMO. "Oh look, three guys and one of them plays a Hammond, and the bass player sings, must be an ELP clone." Yet Le Orme has 80% less flash and 80% more taste! (but I do love ELP. ELP is a band that you listen to FOR the flash!)

Orme is no "clone" band, but the influence is quite profound. Iirc, Pagliuca even went to London to meet Emerson and then came back ready to combine classical and rock; hence Collage. I'm a huge fan or nearly everything Orme did, but to find these comparisons "surpising" is a bit odd, IMO.

[sonic]

If you two have listened to KE9 and OLDH without noticing ripoff after ripoff in terms of style, structure, tone ... gosh, everything down to drum fills and finales, I think Triumvirat would be dissapointed.

I think you're listened to the details too much and not listened to the music. Sure there are a lot of 'rip offs' in phrasing and style but the melodies and songs are their own. It certainly doesn't make the music less enjoyable to me. It's not as if there are a billion bands that do this style after all.
On the other hand, there are a ton bands that sound like the Velvet Underground, Iron Maiden, Dream Theater etc ... yet those bands don't get crap thrown at them like Triumvirat does.

[JeffCarney]

I think you're listened to the details too much and not listened to the music. Sure there are a lot of 'rip offs' in phrasing and style but the melodies and songs are their own. It certainly doesn't make the music less enjoyable to me. It's not as if there are a billion bands that do this style after all.
On the other hand, there are a ton bands that sound like the Velvet Underground, Iron Maiden, Dream Theater etc ... yet those bands don't get crap thrown at them like Triumvirat does.

I *never* said anything about it not being enjoyable.

I'm responding to a couple of folks who said they didn't even hear many similariities.

I think it fair to say that to any of us actually familiar with the works I cited, such comments are hard to fathom.

[ItalProgRules]

If you two have listened to KE9 and OLDH without noticing ripoff after ripoff in terms of style, structure, tone ... gosh, everything down to drum fills and finales, I think Triumvirat would be dissapointed.



Orme is no "clone" band, but the influence is quite profound. Iirc, Pagliuca even went to London to meet Emerson and then came back ready to combine classical and rock; hence Collage. I'm a huge fan or nearly everything Orme did, but to find these comparisons "surpising" is a bit odd, IMO.

One quick snatch of Scarlatti on the title track of COLLAGE. The rest of it, and for that matter the entirety of the Le Orme discography as far as I know (and I have most of it) has no classical rips a la ELP.

[JeffCarney]

One quick snatch of Scarlatti on the title track of COLLAGE. The rest of it, and for that matter the entirety of the Le Orme discography as far as I know (and I have most of it) has no classical rips a la ELP.

There are a lot more ways to be influenced by ELP than "classical rips."

[Levgan]

For an even more Nice'ian German band, check Tetragon.

Or Tyburn Tall who really PERFECTED the "great organ + awful vox" formula. Admittedly, the guy's voice was different to Jackson's, but similarly bad if not worse.

[Progbear]

Or Tyburn Tall who really PERFECTED the "great organ + awful vox" formula. Admittedly, the guy's voice was different to Jackson's, but similarly bad if not worse.

Worse. Much worse. I think Klaus Frenesius may be the worst rock & roll vocalist I’ve heard. Ever. I didn’t think it could get worse than Gottfried Janko’s *ahem!* “singing” on Jane’s Lady album. Then I heard Tyburn Tall. The singing is actually quite painful, only the vox on Clowns by Nuova Idea (which I heard later) come anywhere close to this level of awfulness. (And this coming from someone who thinks Lee Jackson’s reputation as the “worst singer ever” is way, way overblown!)

Tetragon = yaaaawn! If you want to hear an ELP knockoff with a little bit of meat on their bones, seek out the Amos Key album.

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

"That's my purse! I don't know you!" --Bobby Hill

N.P.:“Sun Trip”-Grobschnitt

[JAMOOL]

They didn't credit everyone ... much like Led Zep
Some examples:
ELP rip offs:
The Barbarian = Bela Bartok's Allegro Barbaro
Knife Edge = Sinfonietta by Janacek plus a Bach excerpt.

They (rightfully) got some flack for this on the original pressing of the debut but my copy of their debut has the right credits, as does every subsequent album. Unless there is something I'm missing?

[Zeuhlmate]

They credited on later pressings, and if I recall correct there was an issue with Janacecks wife about permissions or money - which got solved in the end?

[Scrotum Scissor]

I didn’t think it could get worse than Gottfried Janko’s “singing” on Jane’s Lady album. Then I heard Tyburn Tall. [...] only the vox on Clowns by Nuova Idea come anywhere close to this level of awfulness. [...] Tetragon = yaaaawn! If you want to hear an ELP knockoff with a little bit of meat on their bones, seek out the Amos Key album

First of all: Jane were horrible, absolutely terrible in general (IMHO). That Live at Home thing is pure torture if you try listening to it all the way through. There's quite simply nothing happening in there - except for bad "songwriting". Second, Nuova Idea's Clowns is one of those instances where the whole work is basically ruined by someone's incomptetence at what they are trying to accomplish - here the vocals of Ricky Belloni. And it's a shame, seeing how the material was arguably some of the strongest these musicians attempted in terms of being "progressive". Third, I never said I particularly liked the Tetragon release, although the closing title track (the only one with vocals, IIRC) is fairly enjoyable. And last, I'm not too keen on the Amos Key album either. For great ELP soundalikes (with as much personality of their own), why not cut straight to the main course and find the legendary Polyphony record?

For the best vox ever, sported by great video to boot:

[ProgSeeker]

Reading through this thread, I confess that it might be one of the most bizarre I've seen at PE. I would have assumed that Triumvirat fans were mostly huge ELP fans who just couldn't get enough and turned to other outlets for variations on that general sound. Perfectly understandable.

I don't get it either. Clone or not, I really enjoyed a few of the Starcastle and Triumvrat albums when I discovered them in the late 80s (especially Spartacus and Fountains of Light). Same goes for Citizen Cain's Somewhere But Yesterday, a Genesis clone that I discovered a few years later, and still pull out to this day. Just today, I was telling someone how much I like Alexi Murdoch, though many call him a Nick Drake clone. Not sure why there's so much emotion about this topic. If I like an album, I just appreciate that it was made...

[presdoug]

I think it is important that one should not make sweeping generalizations about Triumvirat. For example, dismissing them in one stroke as an "ELP clone" is unfair to the band.
As Jurgen Fritz himself said, there are aspects similar to ELP, and aspects that are not.
Also, Triumvirat themselves went through several musical phases, so, again, generalizations are unfair.

[JeffCarney]

First of all: Jane were horrible, absolutely terrible in general (IMHO). That Live at Home thing is pure torture if you try listening to it all the way through. There's quite simply nothing happening in there - except for bad "songwriting".

Nonsense.

Jane has two sensational hard rock albums (Together and Here We Are) that show more innovation and brainpower for songwriting in their chosen field (progressive hard rock) than anything Triumvirat ever did in their field (prog/symph).

Live At Home is a quality hard rock album with nice songwriting throughout. I'd even rate "Windows" as "epic" in its own way, although it drags a bit with the spacey keys stuff.

Second, Nuova Idea's Clowns is one of those instances where the whole work is basically ruined by someone's incomptetence at what they are trying to accomplish - here the vocals of Ricky Belloni. And it's a shame, seeing how the material was arguably some of the strongest these musicians attempted in terms of being "progressive".

Never understood the passionate distaste for this by some. Great album with very unique and powerful falsetto vocals by Belloni. It's no wonder the real deal (New Trolls) grabbed him.

[sonic]

Nonsense.

Jane has two sensational hard rock albums (Together and Here We Are) that show more innovation and brainpower for songwriting in their chosen field (progressive hard rock) than anything Triumvirat ever did in their field (prog/symph).

Live At Home is a quality hard rock album with nice songwriting throughout. I'd even rate "Windows" as "epic" in its own way, although it drags a bit with the spacey keys stuff.

I agree. Jane is one of my favorite German bands.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Nonsense. Jane has two sensational hard rock albums (Together and Here We Are) that show more innovation and brainpower for songwriting in their chosen field (progressive hard rock) than anything Triumvirat ever did in their field (prog/symph). Live At Home is a quality hard rock album with nice songwriting throughout.

Yes, I have now changed my mind completely. Live at Home is spectacularly fantastic, in fact quite possibly the greatest album ever by anyone. I was mistaken, and you were correct. Vocals and songwriting is extraordinarily fabulous and the innovation in these unfathomably intelligent chord progressions (which luckily continue for 15-20 minutes at a time) is nothing short of brainshatteringly staggering. Rarely have I heard such a shockingly subtle progressive hard rock - very, very progressive and hard at that.

And I never said I was a huge Triumvirat fan. Jane, however, is the best of all time.