FEATURED CD - Il Balleto Di Bronzo: Ys

[Sputnik]

Scissor dude, the "big 5 Symph bands" are only the big 5 in sales. They moved the most product. They were the most POPular. They are Pop Prog compared to any other Prog artist whether they be Symph, Fusion, Avant, Zuehl or Canterbury because they were the biggest sellers of product. That's all. The majority love them the most because they sold the most and are known by the most. Tons of Prog music is better than "the big 5 Symph bands" but they did not sell. They weren't as POPular. Everyone knows Squire's band, but not everyone knows <insert better artist here> because the POPular bands have to be safer by nature in order to move more product.

The "big 5 Symph bands" were not "big" as in 'they did better music' (cause they certainly are nowhere near as good or exciting to listen to than some of the obscure stuff) they are "big" cause everyone knows who they are. POPular doesn't mean better. As far as I'm concerned, there aren't many Genesis tunes that hold my attention at all. YES do slightly better but are still very pedestrian sounding compared many of to the Italian Symph bands and definitely more pedestrian than artists in other Prog styles.

The "big 5 of Symph" are the Justin Biebers of Prog. Anyone who has dug deep into the vast ocean of Prog music knows that.

Can't say I agree with this. I do agree that the "big 5/6/7" are "big" because of popularity and sales. I certainly got into Prog from being exposed to their music. When I started exploring deeper, particularly in the 90s when obscure stuff was coming out on CD, I was excited to find more music like these bands who play a type of music that resonates with me strongly. And I did find many, I've heard thousands of albums by bands touching all the styles you mention above. But for me the hit rate of those that matched the quality of these "touchstone" bands is extremely low. And even bands like Area, PFM, Banco, who I think are fantastic, I don't find partucularly "better" than Yes, ELP, KC, Genesis, or Tull in their primes. Rather to me they are "as good as, but different."

So as someone who has "dug deep into the vast ocean of Prog music," I disagree with what you say. That may be true for you, which is both fine and kind of sad at the same time. But don't generalize that to everyone, it just doesn't hold.

I expressed my opinion on IBdB. To me, it doesn't hold up compared to a lot of other stuff and doesn't quite live up to its monster reputation. Others said it does, and some have even elaborated why. That's fine, it's all opinions. We share these opinions presumably so people get some perspective on the works under discussion. I know I'll give IBdB a closer spin in light of some of what I read here, maybe it will help me appreciate the album more. If not, then I'll still hold that it's a glorous mess, which is my opinion only. But I think that opinion is equally valid as someone who hold this as a masterpiece. There is no "truth" when it comes to this, art doesn't work that way.

Isn't there room for both the more well-known and the more obscure?

Not everything by the ballyhooed bigs is an unassailable classic. Nor are all the prognoscenti-championed "better-thans" necessarily all they're cracked up to be. It's all a matter of opinion, which is why threads like this tend to become eye-rollers when those opinions are presented as if they were "facts".

I agree 100%. Well said.

Bill

[Brian Griffin]

And even bands like Area, PFM, Banco, who I think are fantastic, I don't find partucularly "better" than Yes, ELP, KC, Genesis, or Tull in their primes. Rather to me they are "as good as, but different."

Preach!

BG

[Pr33t]

Funny - I engaged in a RVW binge yesterday meself (Thomas Tallis, London Symph (2), Symph 3 - 5) and yes, you are not too far off He has become one of my favorite composers in the last 5 or so years, and many folks would devour his music if they invested a little time and energy.

Not to derail this too much, but I'd love some RVW suggestions for the uninitiated. That being said, I have little to no experience with any classical music, but I've seen enough RVW references to things I do listen to go exploring.

[TheH]

Not to derail this too much, but I'd love some RVW suggestions for the uninitiated. That being said, I have little to no experience with any classical music, but I've seen enough RVW references to things I do listen to go exploring.

The afore mentioned "London Symphony" would be a good starting Point

[Pr33t]

What a load of self righteous bullshit - I wouldn't even know where to begin

Just don't Anyone who's been on this board for long enough knows there's an agenda behind that post and shouldn't conflate it in any way with the Scissor man's original argument.

I expressed my opinion on IBdB. To me, it doesn't hold up compared to a lot of other stuff and doesn't quite live up to its monster reputation. Others said it does, and some have even elaborated why. That's fine, it's all opinions. We share these opinions presumably so people get some perspective on the works under discussion. I know I'll give IBdB a closer spin in light of some of what I read here, maybe it will help me appreciate the album more. If not, then I'll still hold that it's a glorous mess, which is my opinion only. But I think that opinion is equally valid as someone who hold this as a masterpiece. There is no "truth" when it comes to this, art doesn't work that way.

I think the original back and forth you had with the Scissor man was the interesting part of this thread because you both articulated why you felt the way you did. We're now getting into the terminal phase of any thread like this where everyone starts to get defensive. There's room for both sets of opinions and everything in between.

What I don't like about these threads is the "how dare you blaspheme the sacred idols!" dogma that is equally prevalent as the perceived "it's obscure, it has to be better!" claims. The whole reason we have experimentation in music or anything else is because artists sought to tear down the established mode of production and create something new. Yes, Genesis, and the big whatever did the same thing to standard R&B that Henry Cow, Van der Graaf, IBdB, etc., then did to the 'standard' symphonic prog of the Big 5. In essence, this is the definition of 'progressive,' and the entire reason I find this music interesting.

When I started exploring deeper, particularly in the 90s when obscure stuff was coming out on CD, I was excited to find more music like these bands who play a type of music that resonates with me strongly. And I did find many, I've heard thousands of albums by bands touching all the styles you mention above. But for me the hit rate of those that matched the quality of these "touchstone" bands is extremely low. And even bands like Area, PFM, Banco, who I think are fantastic, I don't find partucularly "better" than Yes, ELP, KC, Genesis, or Tull in their primes. Rather to me they are "as good as, but different."

I'm not at all about to question your opinion, but you do admit here that the "Big whatever" Anglo-prog standard bearers are essentially the stick by which you measure everything else. It can't be denied that frame of reference is important, but at least for me, I used the most reductive basis of "do I enjoy this?" vs "Do I enjoy this as much as ____?"

[Sputnik]

I'm not at all about to question your opinion, but you do admit here that the "Big whatever" Anglo-prog standard bearers are essentially the stick by which you measure everything else. It can't be denied that frame of reference is important, but at least for me, I used the most reductive basis of "do I enjoy this?" vs "Do I enjoy this as much as ____?"

In the context of my post, I can see how it would come off that way. It isn't strictly so, but I don't deny the "big whatever" bands are a yardstick for me and are very much a part of my frame of reference when listening to Progressive Rock, particularly bands that fall braodly in the "Symph Prog" category. For me, fusion is a differnet thing, and I have a different frame of reference there and different yardsticks.

But I'd renfine this a little by saying that back in the day, I was never that big into King Crimson or Genesis. For me, it was Yes, ELP and Tull. I certainly heard KC and Genesis, but it wasn't until the 90s when I started exploring more obscure Prog on CD that I delved heavily into Genesis' and KC's catalogs, as well as VDGG and GG along with a host of others. So in a sense, they were not really part of my "frame of reference," but rapidly became so as I discovered how good I felt they were in comparison to a lot of the bands I was discovering. To me, their quality stood out aginst the multitudes of what is available in the Prog world, even when they were on more of an "even playing field."

So they aren't yardsticks because they are the "big whatever," or necessairaly because I heard them first, but because they embody best the elements of the music I like the most. GG, National Health, Area, UK's first album, Egg, some Banco, and a few others have also entered that "yardstick" category for. So it's fluid, and subect to change, and hardly limited to the "big 5," though those big 5 have remained there for me. In fact I like some of these bands a bit more than Genesis, but I think Genesis in their classic period is still a seminal example of the elements of the music I most enjoy.

It can't be denied that frame of reference is important, but at least for me, I used the most reductive basis of "do I enjoy this?" vs "Do I enjoy this as much as ____?"

I also largely use the litmus of "do I enjoy this?" vs "Do I enjoy this as much as ____?" If I didn't, I'd probably only have a very few albums in my collection (though admittedly my collection is smaller than many here, which might imply I have narrower, more specifically defined tastes). But I think it's silly to deny that you like cetain things better than others. I like Starcastle (God help me). Do I like them more than Yes? Absolutely not, but they scratch a little itch in my brain from time to time. When discussing Starcastle, I'm happy to say I like them to some extent, but I'm not going to deny their shortcomings, particularly in comparison with the bands they aped.

Same with IBdB. I like it. I don't love it, becasue at times to me it drifts aimlessly and sometimes the individual parts don't meld together organically, giving it a "cobbled together" feel (again, just my opinion). Some hold this up as a "masterpiece," but to me masterpieces don't feel cobbled together or drift aimlessly, and I get that sense far less from the "big whatever" than I do from IBdB. So I like YS, but I don'l like YS as much as Relayer, or CttE, or APP or BSS. What's wrong with feeling that way, and expressing that?

Bill

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

bands like Area, PFM, Banco, who I think are fantastic, I don't find partucularly "better" than Yes, ELP, KC, Genesis, or Tull in their primes. Rather to me they are "as good as, but different."

That's a perfectly valid opinion Bill... as valid as mine. Everyone has a different opinion. I'm actually not a drooling fanboy of *any* band in any style of Prog music. IBDB - YS is certainly *not* in my top 50 of all Prog albums and may not even crack my top 50 in the mere Symph style of Prog, but if my entire music library disappeared except for YS, CTTE and Selling England, I would reach for YS 9 times out of 10 over CTTE and 99 times out of 100 over SEBTP. CTTE and SEBTP are just pedestrian Pop Prog to my ears.

Now... speaking of just Symph... throw in some early Crimso or Camel and YS wouldn't get played as much. But Yes and Genesis are Pop fluff to these ears.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Isn't there room for both the more well-known and the more obscure?

Not everything by the ballyhooed bigs is an unassailable classic. Nor are all the prognoscenti-championed "better-thans" necessarily all they're cracked up to be. It's all a matter of opinion, which is why threads like this tend to become eye-rollers when those opinions are presented as if they were "facts".

Who has claimed that there isn't room? When were alleged standards presented as if "facts" here?

[Scrotum Scissor]

Love to see Citta on your list, that is one of my very favorite RPI's, very under rated, I love the blend on Italian folk influences with an Osanna like edge - it's fantastic

Playing "Uno" right now, another great Osanna off-shoot

El Tor is definitely among the most underrated Italian 70s progressive releases, but other than Vairetti's voice I really don't detect too much Osanna in it. I like Osanna, but their music (even the admitted classic of Palepoli) was so rough and fragmented and at times even disjointed that the overall feel is very hit-and-miss for me. I love the rawness of it, but I'm not sure about it sticking all that good together. The Uno album I could never really get into; they somehow end up like the more pedestrian names of Il Volo (first), Gruppo 2000, Odissea and those lackluster Formula 3 releases. Not exactly bad by any means, but never too memorable either (although I like the second Il Volo record).

Cervello was Corrado Rustici's band before he joined Osanna (where his brother Danielo played) for the Landscape album, which I find very uneven 'though with great single parts. But to me, Cervello was what Osanna could never accomplish; a different level of discipline yet chaos control and melodies galores.

[Brian Griffin]

El Tor is definitely among the most underrated Italian 70s progressive releases, but other than Vairetti's voice I really don't detect too much Osanna in it. I like Osanna, but their music (even the admitted classic of Palepoli) was so rough and fragmented and at times even disjointed that the overall feel is very hit-and-miss for me. I love the rawness of it, but I'm not sure about it sticking all that good together. The Uno album I could never really get into; they somehow end up like the more pedestrian names of Il Volo (first), Gruppo 2000, Odissea and those lackluster Formula 3 releases. Not exactly bad by any means, but never too memorable either (although I like the second Il Volo record).

Cervello was Corrado Rustici's band before he joined Osanna (where his brother Danielo played) for the Landscape album, which I find very uneven 'though with great single parts. But to me, Cervello was what Osanna could never accomplish; a different level of discipline yet chaos control and melodies galores.

Interesting take, our opinions differ on this band

I find the first 4 LP's to be as good a run as was had, by anyone

If you don't like Landscape, I can see not liking Uno, I think they are similar, although Landscape is far better IMO

Danilo Rustici is fantastic on it, his extended solo on Somehow, Somewhere, Sometime is one of my favorites

Osanna is such a mix of styles, and yes, I agree - chaotic / fragmented / raw, but with consistently great songs within the songs - it works beautifully for me

BG

[elliottnow]

Glad I checked this one out. I love it.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I like Osanna, but their music (even the admitted classic of Palepoli) was so rough and fragmented and at times even disjointed that the overall feel is very hit-and-miss for me.

exactly my opinion of Osanna as well. Having seen them live though made me appreciate them a bit more.

[Sputnik]

Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor

I like Osanna, but their music (even the admitted classic of Palepoli) was so rough and fragmented and at times even disjointed that the overall feel is very hit-and-miss for me.

exactly my opinion of Osanna as well. Having seen them live though made me appreciate them a bit more.

Funny, I just spun Palepoli two nights ago, which has been in my boner pile for ages. This is one I often hear great things about. But I've owned it for years, spun it many times, and I just find it an uninteresting mess. I keep putting it in my "for sale" pile, but it either hasn't sold or I get cold feet and decide to hang onto it. Maybe seeing them live would help me as well, but I sort of doubt it.

I'm going to make it a point to bring Melos and YS to my next rehearsal, where I'll give them a close spin in the car on the way there and back. Maybe I'm missing someting on these.

Of course, right now I'm not sure I can get my car out of the driveway with all the freaking snow. So who knows when this will happen.

Bill

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I need to revisit Melos as well... it didn't impress me years ago when I got it. While I'm at it, I'll drag out El Tor too

[chalkpie]

Not to derail this too much, but I'd love some RVW suggestions for the uninitiated. That being said, I have little to no experience with any classical music, but I've seen enough RVW references to things I do listen to go exploring.

I'd love to join in on a RVW thread - if you start one, I shall come!

In the meantime, here is a pretty huge thread at TC on 'Ole Ralphie. There are many other threads there as well, but this one is a good basic overall discussion on RVW. Enjoy.

http://www.talkclassical.com/3452-ra...ughan+williams

[Plasmatopia]

I have Ys and have spun it several times and enjoy it well enough, but for whatever reason it's not something that sticks with me. Not that I would consider that the fault of the composers. It's just a failure to resonate. Makes me wish I understood the lyrics. After all this discussion I will have to revisit it though.

[Brian Griffin]

Makes me wish I understood the lyrics

Based on the English versions of a couple of songs on the EP of YS, perhaps this isn't such a great idea

: )

BG

[Galactic Bulldozer]

One minute you're the best guitar-slinger in town and then (YS / JH) walks in....

[moecurlythanu]

When were alleged standards presented as if "facts" here?

The "big 5 of Symph" are the Justin Biebers of Prog. Anyone who has dug deep into the vast ocean of Prog music knows that.

..

[JKL2000]

I've dug Ys out of my basement and ripped it to my iPod. It always sounded great to me, but I haven't heard it in several years. Looking forward to a good chance to listen to it...

[Pr33t]

But I'd renfine this a little by saying that back in the day, I was never that big into King Crimson or Genesis. For me, it was Yes, ELP and Tull. I certainly heard KC and Genesis, but it wasn't until the 90s when I started exploring more obscure Prog on CD that I delved heavily into Genesis' and KC's catalogs, as well as VDGG and GG along with a host of others. So in a sense, they were not really part of my "frame of reference," but rapidly became so as I discovered how good I felt they were in comparison to a lot of the bands I was discovering. To me, their quality stood out aginst the multitudes of what is available in the Prog world, even when they were on more of an "even playing field."

So they aren't yardsticks because they are the "big whatever," or necessairaly because I heard them first, but because they embody best the elements of the music I like the most. GG, National Health, Area, UK's first album, Egg, some Banco, and a few others have also entered that "yardstick" category for. So it's fluid, and subect to change, and hardly limited to the "big 5," though those big 5 have remained there for me. In fact I like some of these bands a bit more than Genesis, but I think Genesis in their classic period is still a seminal example of the elements of the music I most enjoy.

I totally get where you're coming from, and thanks for the clarification. I'd easily agree with you that Genesis is pretty much exemplary of what Prog is, so I understand why they are usually central to many discussions. I'd compare my experience juxtaposed to yours; 12-15 years ago, I was well on top of the current scene, obsessively listening to what was new and active in the festival world, in addition to the stuff from the 70s. Now, I find that only the rare album from that time period really resonates with me, and even though I've gone back to listening primarily to prog after a number of years, it's the 70s stuff that I reach for.

Same with IBdB. I like it. I don't love it, becasue at times to me it drifts aimlessly and sometimes the individual parts don't meld together organically, giving it a "cobbled together" feel (again, just my opinion). Some hold this up as a "masterpiece," but to me masterpieces don't feel cobbled together or drift aimlessly, and I get that sense far less from the "big whatever" than I do from IBdB. So I like YS, but I don'l like YS as much as Relayer, or CttE, or APP or BSS. What's wrong with feeling that way, and expressing that?

There's nothing wrong with that at all and I respect your opinion - as I said earlier, this was a thread I actually enjoyed because before some jumped in to troll the pot, the discussion of why one liked or disliked the album were quite interesting, and something that I find lacking from the site these days. I don't have any music composition background, so I'm not necessarily listening for the same things that you are. Often times mood and vibe can completely cover up compositional shortcomings.

I guess it's a matter of personal preference for me in a different way; I find the discussions of the 'obscure' so much more interesting here than that of the dominant "big whatever" posts (or the godawful lists). That stuff has been hashed, rehashed, half-baked and burnt out so many times, the threads like this or other ones championing the lesser known are the only things that keep me reading the site.

Maybe it's just an overreaction to the fact that when some champion the lesser known or the bands that don't have consensus popularity, their enthusiasm is often turned into accusations of elitism. I'd still list Genesis as my favorite band of all time, but there is absolutely nothing I have to say about them that I haven't already, or hasn't been said by someone else. I'd prefer to discuss something that less people know about in hopes of bringing their attention to it, or in hope of learning something myself. I wouldn't be listening to anything other that Pink Floyd, Rush or Yes if the internet (and especially Napster) didn't sprout up during my formative exploratory years. Music has always been a journey of discovery to me, and it still is. In the last few years I've heard an incredible amount of things from the past that I did not know about or had overlooked, even when I thought I had thoroughly combed over the history of prog. It blows me away that there are things I've only discovered recently that I can now count among my favorites.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

..

they *are* the *most* POPular/sold the most product of the Symph Prog style just as Bieber sells the most product of the Pop style... or do you think you can present an argument to counter that fact?

[moecurlythanu]

they *are* the *most* POPular/sold the most product of the Symph Prog style just as Bieber sells the most product of the Pop style... or do you think you can present an argument to counter that fact?

I wouldn't try to counter that. They're the Big 6 precisely because of stature, prominence, airplay & sales. But that isn't what you said. If it was, "digging deep into the vast ocean of Prog" wouldn't be necessary to know that. You were making a value judgement based on your tastes, and you were stating it as if it were fact. Furthermore, you made it sound as if it were a self-evident truth that anyone with wider exposure would recognize without contradiction. You were trying to equate the Big 6 with inconsequential fluff that lacks substance, something to be left behind when one graduates to more "sophisticated" styles.

It was a massive cloud of flatulence, something you're well known around here for.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

They're the Big 6 precisely because of stature, prominence

It was a massive cloud of flatulence, something you're well known around here for.

stature and prominence? well if that's what you call selling the most product then I guess you just go right ahead and enjoy your own flatulence.

Their music falls way short of many other artists music which were not as POPular to the masses. Popularity does not equal artistic excellence. Never has, never will.

[Prehensile Pencil]

November, 1974. I got Ys, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, and Relayer, all on the same day. I didn't do much that Winter, except needle-drops on the eight sides. We baby-boomers were spoiled.......