Was 70s prog pretentious?

[GuitarGeek]

I don't know if the bands thought they were more important than they were. I think some (or maybe even a lot) of their fans certainly do. But then you could probably say that about just about any genre of music.

I think what detracted from the music was the idea of doing stuff making a record based on the Shastric Scriptures (which Jon Anderson never actually read or studied, he just read a "footnote" in a book), or performing long, drawn out, self indulgent music that sounded like it was designed to impress the hell out of people. Not for me, it doesn't, but I think that's the stuff that so called music journalists remember about the music, rather than any of the emotional content or truly brilliant moments.

[Homburg]

^^ @JJ88

In the late 70s at least I knew lots of young people who liked prog supergroups and were otherwise culturally and politically conservative, albeit relatively intellectual.

[viukkis]

Well, there was this Gentle Giant compilation, released in the middle of the punk craze...

[JJ88]

^^ @JJ88

In the late 70s at least I knew lots of young people who liked prog supergroups and were otherwise culturally and politically conservative, albeit relatively intellectual.

Well like I added to my initial post, the reputation of the genre often seems to go back to some of its 70s fanbase. It's a shame.

[Homburg]

Eh.. don't know that I would agree with that. The times changed and they got rich and had more toys to play with and the spirit of the '60s faded (which led to less "message" music) but I don't iknow that this led to "creating important works;" at least to a greater extent than before. In fact, insofar as importance, I'd say that the earlier '70s has it over the mid-'70s, when the bands started to repeat themselves.

I meant that the artists, their publicists and maybe fans considered the works in themselves important, less 'rock as part of a cultural revolution', more 'rock for art's sake'. Personally I don't think mid-70s prog produced more important albums than late 60s rock.

[bill g]

Don't know how any music could be pretentious if it is sincere and written from the heart. Hopefully, that's what most music is.

[Homburg]

Well like I added to my initial post, the reputation of the genre often seems to go back to some of its 70s fanbase. It's a shame.

I don't think that's the case, and I certainly have got nothing against 70s prog fans (I was one).

What I meant is that if there is any radical cultural message in e.g. Topographic Oceans (but really many other of the most popular prog albums too) it is too obscure to challenge politically conservative - and some culturally conservative - attitudes. I suppose the proggers did consolidate some hippie culture that was originally radical, e.g. long hair.

[JJ88]

^Neither have I, sorry if it came out that way! I'm guessing this was a snobby minority, but I see it mentioned a few times.

I had the same thing from 'indie' fans.

[Sputnik]

One element I would add is that the prog supergroups moved away from an anarchistic counter-culture with an overt 'change the world' agenda, to a more conventional and privileged role of great artists who create important works without really challenging much beyond art. Mid-seventies popular prog was really a long way from Woodstock. It was easier for conservatives to like Yes than to like Country Joe and The Fish.

The Prog guys were certainly less direct or "in your face" about progressive politics. But I'd argue that thematically, they were largely in line with the 60s aesthetic, and shared exactly the same concerns that the 60s counterculture shared. They just expressed a different side or face of those concerns, and in a way that often concealed or clouded the meaning enough that many people, even fans of the bands, often didn't really "get it."

At root, I think the Proggers shifted from the 60s focus on political consciousness to a focus on "spiritual" consciousness. In a sense, the 60s were about tearing down the old ways. The Proggers in many cases were trying to "rebuild it in a new form." This is partly why the epic form was so attractive. New myths for a new age, with appropriately grandiose music to fit the epic themes. The fear of the fascist/technocratic state in Tarkus, the spiritual quest of CttE, much of the pastoralism, myths, and spirituality in Genesis' early pieces, Floyd's nihilism, are all quite in line with where counter-cultural thought was by the late 60s and early 70s.

They gave hints for a generation that had thrown off traditional modes of thought about how to live in a new world. What is the state of spiritual ascension? The state of constant questioning. How do we combat the ubiquity of a faceless totalitarian society? Preserve the flame of your inner being and remain ever vigilant. What happens when you turn the television off? Maybe you'll see God. But of course that doesn't mean being a robot that responds to the "tolling of the iron bell." It means a deeper, personal spirituality that doesn't necessarily adhere to a specific religious doctrine or traditional practices. All very counter-culture, and all there in the big name Prog stuff. Tons of other examples from other bands.

So while I agree with you that it probably was easier for "conservatives" to like Yes than Country Joe and The Fish, I'm not certain these people actually understood that they were embracing something that was elementally progressive in a social, political, cultural and spiritual sense, and intimately tied to the philosophy that produced the 60s generation. Not really so far from Woodstock at all to me, just the logical evolution or "progression" of that period.

Bill

[bill g]

(1) If you don't like something, people who do like it might seem "pretentious" to you. (2) And people who take it seriously and try hard to do it well will seem even more pretentious. (1) explains why some people might find punk or avant-garde music pretentious, but (2) is probably why the "pretentious" tag sticks to prog music so much- it's usually obvious that the people playing it are taking their efforts seriously and trying hard to do something they think is special.

Very well said.

[Homburg]

Also Wakeman, Oldfield and others actually voted Conservative in the 70s. I don't hate them for this, or dismiss their music because of this, but it is a change to note. Imagine a member of Jefferson Airplane voting for Nixon.

[JJ88]

^Oldfield later had that impression of Thatcher on 'Amarok'...never knew what to make of that!

[GuitarGeek]

Also Wakeman, Oldfield and others actually voted Conservative in the 70s. I don't hate them for this, or dismiss their music because of this, but it is a change to note. Imagine a member of Jefferson Airplane voting for Nixon.

I had the understanding that "conservative" meant two different things in the UK and the US.

[Homburg]

The Prog guys were certainly less direct or "in your face" about progressive politics. But I'd argue that thematically, they were largely in line with the 60s aesthetic, and shared exactly the same concerns that the 60s counterculture shared. They just expressed a different side or face of those concerns, and in a way that often concealed or clouded the meaning enough that many people, even fans of the bands, often didn't really "get it."

At root, I think the Proggers shifted from the 60s focus on political consciousness to a focus on "spiritual" consciousness. In a sense, the 60s were about tearing down the old ways. The Proggers in many cases were trying to "rebuild it in a new form." This is partly why the epic form was so attractive. New myths for a new age, with appropriately grandiose music to fit the epic themes. The fear of the fascist/technocratic state in Tarkus, the spiritual quest of CttE, much of the pastoralism, myths, and spirituality in Genesis' early pieces, Floyd's nihilism, are all quite in line with where counter-cultural thought was by the late 60s and early 70s.

They gave hints for a generation that had thrown off traditional modes of thought about how to live in a new world. What is the state of spiritual ascension? The state of constant questioning. How do we combat the ubiquity of a faceless totalitarian society? Preserve the flame of your inner being and remain ever vigilant. What happens when you turn the television off? Maybe you'll see God. But of course that doesn't mean being a robot that responds to the "tolling of the iron bell." It means a deeper, personal spirituality that doesn't necessarily adhere to a specific religious doctrine or traditional practices. All very counter-culture, and all there in the big name Prog stuff. Tons of other examples from other bands.

So while I agree with you that it probably was easier for "conservatives" to like Yes than Country Joe and The Fish, I'm not certain these people actually understood that they were embracing something that was elementally progressive in a social, political, cultural and spiritual sense, and intimately tied to the philosophy that produced the 60s generation. Not really so far from Woodstock at all to me, just the logical evolution or "progression" of that period.

More great commentary - thanks Bill. You'd be a good chap to have a beer with.

The counter argument is that when artistic expression (as opposed to fuller commitment) moves in a more 'spiritual' direction it actually evades the stark concerns of actual day-to-day living, as well as explicitly political issues. Also it's easy to pay lip service to spirituality and vague notions of peace (like singing carols at Christmas) without being deeply into them. Which proggers were really into their spirituality, which just gave spirituality a nod as fashion moved in that direction?

[Homburg]

I had the understanding that "conservative" meant two different things in the UK and the US.

The Conservative Party is the right-of-centre political party in Britain (i.e. like the Republican Party). More broadly I think the term means the same in both countries.

[bob_32_116]

One thing I see time and again from people who seem to hold a grudge against prog relates to them being looked down on by those who liked prog back in the day. Not fair to blame the musicians for the fanbase. There's still a sense of these anti-prog writers being stuck in the sixth form IMHO.

A problem is that among the critics there are not enough people who really know their rock history well, people like Lester Bangs and Glenn A Baker. Music journalism seems to be very much a young person's field, they were born at least 20 years after the start of rock and roll (if you call that the late 1950's). the Beatles, the Beach Boys, Motown, it's all ancient history to them. They know about that stuff, they have heard it and read about it, but they did not grow up with it and so don't have the same perspective. To them, Frank Sinatra, Bill Haley, The Beatles and Yes are all merged together in their mind as "the old stuff".

I'm certainly not suggesting young people shouldn't be music critics, heaven forbid, but it would be good to have a few more old farts as well.

[JJ88]

^Well glam-rock dodged political issues of the day as well. It's not something that ever bothered me that much...overtly 'political' music doesn't always last that well IMHO, regardless of whether you agree with the sentiments.

[Zeuhlmate]

Steely Dan spent a year on just mixing an album (aja) - I dont know if it was pretensious, but it looked pretensious.

[JJ88]

A problem is that among the critics there are not enough people who really know their rock history well, people like Lester Bangs and Glenn A Baker. Music journalism seems to be very much a young person's field, they were born at least 20 years after the start of rock and roll (if you call that the late 1950's). the Beatles, the Beach Boys, Motown, it's all ancient history to them. They know about that stuff, they have heard it and read about it, but they did not grow up with it and so don't have the same perspective. To them, Frank Sinatra, Bill Haley, The Beatles and Yes are all merged together in their mind as "the old stuff".

I'm certainly not suggesting young people shouldn't be music critics, heaven forbid, but it would be good to have a few more old farts as well.

I'm in my 20s and do try to have a firm grasp of 20th Century popular music...at least from WWII onwards.

[Sputnik]

More great commentary - thanks Bill. You'd be a good chap to have a beer with.

Oooh, I like beer! Especially all the good local ales they're doing in England now. Nothing would make me happier than a chat over a few pints of that!

The counter argument is that when artistic expression (as opposed to fuller commitment) moves in a more 'spiritual' direction it actually evades the stark concerns of actual day-to-day living, as well as explicitly political issues. Also it's easy to pay lip service to spirituality and vague notions of peace (like singing carols at Christmas) without being deeply into them. Which proggers were really into their spirituality, which just gave spirituality a nod as fashion moved in that direction?

I agree 100% with this. I'm not sure it's a "counter" argument, but rather the unfortunate reality that maybe a lot of that counter-cultural rhetoric what just that, rhetoric. I think it all sounded very important at the time, and it probably seemed important. And in that sense it was important to a lot of people, and didn't seem overblown in importance at that time.

But lots of things that seem really important at a given time turn out to not be so important in the end. And it is perhaps exactly the "seriousness" with which our Prog heroes took all this stuff that in hindsight seems justifiably a bit naive, or pretentious. Of course the 60s seem a bit naive too. Looking back, some of it does indeed seem a bit of a "fashion trend."

But this isn't to say the counter-culture didn't accomplish certain things or that it was all empty. For better or worse, our world was shaped profoundly by that period. I can barely imagine living in a pre-1967 world at this point. Our consciousness was opened to possibilities unthinkable previously. Many have benefited from the opening of minds emanating from that era, and music, including Progressive Rock, was an important tool in getting that message out. But we hardly live in the utopia they envisioned. If we did, ELP and YES would still be selling big, right?

Bill

[Modry Effekt]

I'd would call Magma after 1001 centigrades, as pretentious as it gets.Language is kobaian.But I like it.

[bob_32_116]

"The Pentateuch of the Cosmogony" by David Greenslade is probably about as pompous and pretentious as you can get. Not referring to the music, which I haven't heard - just the title!

[Homburg]

^Well glam-rock dodged political issues of the day as well. It's not something that ever bothered me that much...overtly 'political' music doesn't always last that well IMHO, regardless of whether you agree with the sentiments.

I don't disagree with any of this; I don't think music has a responsibility to be political. I'm just interested in the extents to which prog can and cannot claim to be counter-cultural, about the extents to which it did and didn't perpetuate 60s hippie values.

[Homburg]

I agree 100% with this. I'm not sure it's a "counter" argument, but rather the unfortunate reality that maybe a lot of that counter-cultural rhetoric what just that, rhetoric. I think it all sounded very important at the time, and it probably seemed important. And in that sense it was important to a lot of people, and didn't seem overblown in importance at that time.

But lots of things that seem really important at a given time turn out to not be so important in the end. And it is perhaps exactly the "seriousness" with which our Prog heroes took all this stuff that in hindsight seems justifiably a bit naive, or pretentious. Of course the 60s seem a bit naive too. Looking back, some of it does indeed seem a bit of a "fashion trend."

But this isn't to say the counter-culture didn't accomplish certain things or that it was all empty. For better or worse, our world was shaped profoundly by that period. I can barely imagine living in a pre-1967 world at this point. Our consciousness was opened to possibilities unthinkable previously. Many have benefited from the opening of minds emanating from that era, and music, including Progressive Rock, was an important tool in getting that message out. But we hardly live in the utopia they envisioned.

Yes, I agree completely.

I read an interesting quote from Brian Eno - the exact context wasn't supplied, but I inferred he was referring to something to do with prog and counter-culture. The quote was something like 'I was part of something that feels more important than it actually was'.

Let me know, Bill, if you're ever in Cambridge, UK, and I'll buy the first round.

[Yves]

Full Definition of PRETENTIOUS

1: characterized by pretension: as
a : making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him — Richard Watts>
b : expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature <pretentious language> <pretentious houses>

2: making demands on one's skill, ability, or means : ambitious <the pretentious daring of the Green Mountain Boys in crossing the lake — American Guide Series: Vermont>

I'd say definition #2 above can be applied to it. And what's wrong with that?