YES News: Relayer goes 5.1 Next(Steven Wilson)

[Rand Kelly]

Finally,we will get a new mix in high resolution stereo and 5.1 Surround Sound. OMG!!! I can't wait. www.yesworld.com or @ facebook Yes(Official)

[yodathedog]

YAY!!!!

[Brian Griffin]

Due Oct, so not so far off

Looking forward!

BG

[Plasmatopia]

Awesome! Probably my favorite Yes album.

[happytheman]

Finally,we will get a new mix in high resolution stereo and 5.1 Surround Sound. OMG!!! I can't wait. www.yesworld.com or @ facebook Yes(Official)

Any ideas of what "bonus audio material" they are referring to?

[tom unbound]

Any ideas of what "bonus audio material" they are referring to?

That's why I'm buying, whatever it turns out to be !

[trurl]

I will literally sh!t in my pants. This is the one that could really benefit from a decent remix.

[Facelift]

This is the one that could really benefit from a decent remix.

I don't normally care for Steve Wilson's work, but in the case of Relayer I kind of agree. I will definitely want to hear this one.

[marblesmike]

I don't normally care for Steve Wilson's work, but in the case of Relayer I kind of agree. I will definitely want to hear this one.

How/why do you not care for his work? His remixing work is pretty much universally lauded all over the internet, including audiophile forums (assuming Peter Mew isn't doing the master ala Thick As A Brick).

[Facelift]

How/why do you not care for his work? His remixing work is pretty much universally lauded all over the internet, including audiophile forums (assuming Peter Mew isn't doing the master ala Thick As A Brick).

Asked and answered in other threads. In short - I have not heard all of his work but don't generally like his remixes, based on what I have heard. I find that they often sound artificial and sometimes don't honor the music being re-mixed.

The albums of original music that he produces often sound overdone and lifeless, IMO. I'm far from alone in this, as the audiophile community is not at all unified about the quality of his work, either in the remixing or mastering. The main audiophile guy on this board (Carney?) doesn't ususally like work either, based on what I've read.

Anyway, in the case of Relayer, I'd be open to trying him again, since I think that there's a lot that could be done with the album to improve it.

[JeffCarney]

The albums of original music that he produces often sound overdone and lifeless, IMO. I'm far from alone in this, as the audiophile community is not at all unified about the quality of his work, either in the remixing or mastering. The main audiophile guy on this board (Carney?) doesn't ususally like work either, based on what I've read.

Not a fan. In short: Remixing analog recordings on a PC renders a sound which is clean but without much life. I've yet to hear him improve on a single mix he's done. The surround mixes, I understand (although I wish he'd buy an actual board and do them in analog ala surround mixes of Pink Floyd albums). But what people are drawn to when he does nothing but save a couple of generations of tape and just re-assembles a stereo mix on his PC is something which eludes me.

Anyway, in the case of Relayer, I'd be open to trying him again, since I think that there's a lot that could be done with the album to improve it.

Yeah, but ironically, part of Relayer's charm is how it sounds. It shows where the band were at the time. Completely brilliant, pushing the envelope and maybe trying to do things recording-wise which were out of their grasp. What can be done to it? Rhino tried by making it much bassier and removing a lot of top end, but many people thought it sounded wonky. Would you lower Howe's Tele in the mix? Bring up the keys?

I think these projects have become more about people wanting to rebuy their favorite albums because so much music today doesn't move them. I can relate, believe me, but real, analog surround mixes are what we should all be pushing for if this music is important enough. Just listen to a surround mix done for Pink Floyd in analog by James Guthrie. Or even Nick Davis' Genesis surrounds. Those Genesis 5.1s may have issues but they were mixed in analog and sound analog. Wilson's stuff sounds cold, clinical and sterile. The last things progressive rock needs in a world where it is often misperceived as those things in the first place.

[jim1961]

Asked and answered in other threads. In short - I have not heard all of his work but don't generally like his remixes, based on what I have heard. I find that they often sound artificial and sometimes don't honor the music being re-mixed.

The albums of original music that he produces often sound overdone and lifeless, IMO. I'm far from alone in this, as the audiophile community is not at all unified about the quality of his work, either in the remixing or mastering. The main audiophile guy on this board (Carney?) doesn't ususally like work either, based on what I've read.

Anyway, in the case of Relayer, I'd be open to trying him again, since I think that there's a lot that could be done with the album to improve it.

I agree with you and Jeff concerning his work. Not a big fan here. But also agree Relayer might benefit from Wilson's approach. What Wilson subtracts from the recordings is already basically gone in Relayer (ambiance/life). So we will see.

[RobT]

I don't normally care for Steve Wilson's work, but in the case of Relayer I kind of agree. I will definitely want to hear this one.

While I didn't care much for the EL&P remixes, I think Lark's Tongue in Aspic and Lizard are revelations. Really enjoying Passion Play and Power and the Glory as well. I don't have the Hawkwind or Caravan, but pretty much all of the others and think they are all improvements. Let's not forget it all depends on what it is he has to work with.

Very excited to hear Relayer, definitely on of my favorite Yes albums.

Just my 2 cents.

[JeffCarney]

While I didn't care much for the EL&P remixes, I think Lark's Tongue in Aspic and Lizard are revelations. Really enjoying Passion Play and Power and the Glory as well. I don't have the Hawkwind or Caravan, but pretty much all of the others and think they are all improvements. Let's not forget it all depends on what it is he has to work with.

I think it's far more about taste than what he has to work with.

You take a mix which hasn't been treated well on CD (IE: Larks) and he'll probably have an easier time impressing. But the bigger point is individual sonic taste. I think the original Larks and Lizard mixes blow Wilson's digital remixes out of the water. So using your examples it's clear that our taste is just different.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it: I think it's wonderful if what he is doing in any way helps put these amazing, often underrated albums he has worked with get back into the spotlight.

But I think far too often the original engineering work done on these albums is being dismissed and that's a shame, IMO. How many people even know who George Chkiantz is, for example? Well, I think his original engineering on S&BB should be regarded far more highly than Wilson remixing it on his computer forty years later. It's far more significant what he captured and his end result was far more impressive anyway.

Something about these remixes strikes me as totally out of whack. These albums don't need Steven Wilson or anybody else to somehow "bring them to life." The fact that so many people care about albums that are 40 years old says that they clearly had the life already. I think many people would be well served to listen to the original mixes a bit more attentively before thinking there are somehow "corrections" or "improvements" which need to be made.

[NorthNY Mark]

I think it's far more about taste than what he has to work with.

You take a mix which hasn't been treated well on CD (IE: Larks) and he'll probably have an easier time impressing. But the bigger point is individual sonic taste. I think the original Larks and Lizard mixes blow Wilson's digital remixes out of the water. So using your examples it's clear that our taste is just different.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it: I think it's wonderful if what he is doing in any way helps put these amazing, often underrated albums he has worked with get back into the spotlight.

But I think far too often the original engineering work done on these albums is being dismissed and that's a shame, IMO. How many people even know who George Chkiantz is, for example? Well, I think his original engineering on S&BB should be regarded far more highly than Wilson remixing it on his computer forty years later. It's far more significant what he captured and his end result was far more impressive anyway.

Something about these remixes strikes me as totally out of whack. These albums don't need Steven Wilson or anybody else to somehow "bring them to life." The fact that so many people care about albums that are 40 years old says that they clearly had the life already. I think many people would be well served to listen to the original mixes a bit more attentively before thinking there are somehow "corrections" or "improvements" which need to be made.

Hear, hear! I'll add that what some have called "murkiness" in many of these mixes do not sound murky at all on well-balanced systems, but rich and nuanced, at least in my experiences. Now, I have not heard the Tull remixes that others praise, but I have heard several of the KC remixes, and find that they all pretty much define "clinical" in relation to the original mixes. Oddly, I loved what SW did for both Fish and Marillion back at the turn of the millennium, and think his own works sounds fine in relation to contemporary standards--yet it just does not work for me with these vintage mixes (and I'm only addressing stereo here--I have no idea how his multichannel work sounds).

Now, a truly "murky" mix that benefited from a clarifying remix, IMO, was the original mix of Days of Future Passed. But in that case, the remix was also done in the analog realm.

[Grimjack]

I think it's far more about taste than what he has to work with.

You take a mix which hasn't been treated well on CD (IE: Larks) and he'll probably have an easier time impressing. But the bigger point is individual sonic taste. I think the original Larks and Lizard mixes blow Wilson's digital remixes out of the water. So using your examples it's clear that our taste is just different.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it: I think it's wonderful if what he is doing in any way helps put these amazing, often underrated albums he has worked with get back into the spotlight.

But I think far too often the original engineering work done on these albums is being dismissed and that's a shame, IMO. How many people even know who George Chkiantz is, for example? Well, I think his original engineering on S&BB should be regarded far more highly than Wilson remixing it on his computer forty years later. It's far more significant what he captured and his end result was far more impressive anyway.

Something about these remixes strikes me as totally out of whack. These albums don't need Steven Wilson or anybody else to somehow "bring them to life." The fact that so many people care about albums that are 40 years old says that they clearly had the life already. I think many people would be well served to listen to the original mixes a bit more attentively before thinking there are somehow "corrections" or "improvements" which need to be made.

Jeff, I really do understand and appreciate your point-of-view which is really well expressed--it's all a matter of taste. Yours and mine clearly differ.

IMNSHO, if anyone has the credibility to take a swing at remixing Yes, Crimso, Tull et all, it's Steven Wilson--a prog fan who faced certain similar challenges in his own music making. What do you do when you have 96 tracks worth of ideas in your head but only have a 4-track recorder at your disposal? Record, bounce, record again…loop, bounce, record. Lather, rinse, repeat. Improvise, adapt, overcome. Not that those artists were in the EXACT same position back in the day, but they had the same artistic challenge--music in their heads that went beyond the limitations of the technology available to them at the time. Technology has since taken several giant leaps forward since 1974 and Wilson came of age as a musician and producer equally comfortable with a computer mouse in his hand as he was a guitar pick--his take on what can be done with a mix now is viewed through a very different lens. Furthermore Wilson's teenage immersion in those classic prog albums primed him to listen with the ears of fan as well as studio professional...this isn't just a job to him. As he's stated in interviews repeatedly, he only works on albums he really likes. It's personal.

From my perspective, he has a preternatural understanding of the character of each musician, instrument and their combined context in the overall piece and Wilson's work has changed my listening experience of these albums for the better. I like the clarity and separation of the instruments that his mixes provide. Does that deviate from the original as it was released? Sure. Does it deviate from the INTENT or desired outcome of the original? Unanswerable. In certain cases, the artist might look back and wish they had more time, different equipment, a mistake that they wish had been fixed etc etc...issues which may in fact be corrected or at least addressed with digital technology. Revisionist history? Perhaps (again, I'm referring to original artistic intent here) but the good news is that there is a robust market for second-hand discs that allow most people to buy and enjoy whichever version they like best. And these new deluxe packages do include flat transfers of the masters which hopefully will placate those who prefer to hear it as it originally was.

Relayer is the album I was most excited about getting "the Wilson treatment". Fusion's influence, the presence of the jazzier Patrick Moraz and perhaps some collective band aggression due to post-Wakeman/post-Topographic fallout created an interesting structural twin to 'Close to the Edge', though these two albums sound nothing alike. 'Close to the Edge' was Yes at their most epic, 'Topographic' their most spiritual but 'Relayer' set a new bar in songcraft, musicianship, and visceral impact. But sonically, I always found 'Relayer' to be a mess...thin, shrill and so much going on in a muddled mix that listening was often the experience of admiring the work rather than immersing myself in it. 'Relayer' 2.0 with an expansive 5.1 mix and a cleaner stereo mix will change that. Much as Mr. Wilson managed to accomplish with King Crimson's 'Lizard' and to a degree with 'A Passion Play', 'Relayer''s place in Yes history is likely to be reevaluated with this release.

I don't agree that what is being done with these releases in any way diminishes the work of the engineers that managed to do incredible things back in the day with recording/mixing technology that had a LOT of limitations...I would argue that their legacy is only enhanced by these reissue campaigns...as you rightly point out, getting these albums in the spotlight is a win for all.

All this said, the key point which you've made and which I hope I've underscored is that this is all a matter of TASTE. There's no right and wrong here. I think Wilson is a hero and his work as a remixer and solo artist is rather genius. I think there are plenty of folks who agree with that point-of-view but who are dismissive of yours and that's not cool...all they've accomplished is to create a pretty vocal anti-Wilson faction which isn't doing any good either. Better that everyone approach with open ears/open mind and some respectful discourse. Oh...wait a minute...this is the Internet.

[Gizmotron]

I think it's far more about taste than what he has to work with.


Something about these remixes strikes me as totally out of whack. These albums don't need Steven Wilson or anybody else to somehow "bring them to life." The fact that so many people care about albums that are 40 years old says that they clearly had the life already. I think many people would be well served to listen to the original mixes a bit more attentively before thinking there are somehow "corrections" or "improvements" which need to be made.

I am curious...are you a musician that records his/her work? I find that my hobby of being a musician and recording my stuff changes how I see issues like this.

[ca1ore]

Nice! Never actually bought this one before so one more time surround will be the impetus.

[Paulrus]

Never actually bought this one before

I'm glad he's tackling it (though I really hope he also eventually tackles Tales). I'm curious what state the original tapes (or if they've already been digitized, the original digital transfers) are in. The original mix was -- needless to say -- shrill. My knee jerk assumption would be that he'd want to give everything a lot more depth, especially in the lower range. I don't know if he can make that happen from the existing source material or if he'll have to fake that into the mixes.

[Progatron]

Should prove to be an excellent release, although I'm still crossing my fingers for a surround mix of Tales.

[2steves]

If there is one album that was made for this kind of treatment--it is this one. wow!

[bp]

If there is one album that was made for this kind of treatment--it is this one. wow!

I love to see ELP's "Welcome Back..." get the full cleanup, remix treatment as well. There are some amazing restoration tools that could turn the live recording into something very special. I've always been fond of the performances it was just the sound quality didn't work very well.

Back to Relayer, Eddie knows how to track so I think that Steven will have very usable stuff to start from. I hope he starts with a strong new stereo mix and then folds out for the surround version. If the drums were recorded with a separate ambi/room pair for the drums, the surround treatment for the kit could be quite muscular.

[Brainforest]

Great! One of my worst sounding / favorite albums.

[N_Singh]

Great! One of my worst sounding / favorite albums.

Their best work, godawful tinny Tele on bridge pup.

[Phlakaton]

Groovy. I agree with everyone here. I cant wait to hear this one all new and fresh!