Tube amplification vs solid state

[strawberrybrick]

Call it luck or good karma, I was recently given by a retiree some pretty cool audio gear that he had in an office, including Musical Fidelity X-10D "tube stage" and X-PRE amp, and a B&K ST-140 power amplifier.

I put in the stereo version of Steven Wilson's remix of Power & The Glory, and have been blown away at the immediate improvement of my old Marantz system, but what amazes me the most is that I can really play it LOUD and feel some real POWER from my PSB speakers. What an upgrade!

Anyone else gone from solid-state to tube?

[Zeuhlmate]

No, but I have borrowed tube amps several times to test.
And it has advantages. Warm, details, not tiring for the ears, more stage presence, 'you are present', some times even more dynamic.

But I still prefer the solid state system I have. (exposure preamp, Parasound amp, Snell A, fullrange speakers)
The tubes are usually colouring too much, some details I like gets blurred, and they cant play a firm deep bass. You often get more bass, but it isnt firm.
Tubes are perfect for smaller acoustic ensembles.

But I would love to have both systems to choose between.

[FrippWire]

I can't afford the level of tube gear I'd want so instead I bought the best used solid state gear I could find for my budget. I'm happy with what I have but may go tube if I have a nice windfall. Sounds you like you got a very nice set up. Enjoy!

[Zeuhlmate]

With tubes you should also remember that aprox. once a year (depending on how long the gear is on) you have to get new tubes.
A friend of mine has a tube Hifi (Manley), and he needs to change tubes once a year, and that is not cheap.

btw
Steve Morse Structural Damage and Stressfest are interesting here.
The first is recorded on solid state gear, but Stressfest is recorded a year after in the same studion with the same crew, but all the studiogear has been changed to tube-gear !
This is certainly audible - check it out. Im not sure which I prefer, but it follows the scheme - Stressfest is warmer, more live'ish, more crisp top, and the bottom end, bass and bassdrum is not as rock firm as on Structural.

[Trane]

I lm somewhat of an audiophile, and will never consider listyening to music on anything less than a good mid-to-high end Hi-Fi chain. (outside listening to YT samples on the computer, of course, and listening to the car deck)

Two of my buddies have tube amps... and both of their systems are arguably better (and much more expensive) than my NAD and Yamaha solid-state hi-Fi chains, though I'd say that is probably also the result of these" tube-amp Hi-fi chains" speakers being also at least one or twxo step up from by B&W...

But to be honest, if the listening experience is cool, why put up with the pain of tube amps (which regularly needs replacing and finding them can be problematic) and have to light up the amp some one hour before actually listening to to music on it (that's what my Paris buddy claims: you must let the amp warm up at least an hour or two for max performance)

I've got a third buddy who had a Chinese tube amp that made most of my music sound like crap >> I was horrified... even if his steroe is (or would b) good, why would I get into a hi-fi niche that makes my preferred music soundlike shit??

So I will never bother with tubes... too little to gain, except a pile of BS problems I don't need.

[rcarlberg]

My dad had a tube hi-fi when I was growing up, before moving to a solid state stereo. I've never owned any myself, but I've done lots of careful listening at our local hi-fi emporium.

Good tube equipment sounds very very good. Good solid state does also. There's nothing magical about tubes, as far as I can tell. Modern stuff sounds better than older stuff, and more expensive stuff sounds better than cheaper -- up to a point. After that point, they're just fleecing the rubes.

[Wounded Land]

What turntable is that in your picture?

(I've never owned a tube component.)

[rcarlberg]

What turntable is that in your picture?

They both appear to be mid-line Technics tables.

[simon moon]

Some of the reasons why tube gear is said to sound better:

Simpler circuits. Tube design does not require the complex circuits and number of components that solid state gear does. Many believe that simpler circuits have less chance of messing with the signal.

More benign overload and distortion characteristics. When overloaded with dynamic peaks, tubes start to distort gradually, and with predominantly even order harmonics. Even order harmonic distortion is perceived as pleasant, and harder to hear, even at fairly high levels. Solid state devices overload abruptly and with almost exclusively odd order harmonics. Humans are much more susceptible to hearing odd order distortion than even order, even at low levels, and odd order harmonic distortion is unpleasant.

Vacuum tubers are more linear amplification devices. They do not require as much negative feedback as solid state. Negative feedback is used to improve amplifier non-linearity and harmonic distortion. The problem is, that this causes transient intermodulation distortion and slew induced distortion. TIM and TID are said to 'suck the life' out of the music.

Greater dynamic swings. The higher working voltages present in tube amplifiers generally allow for wider voltage swings and better signal headroom before entering into overload territory. This is what probably accounts for the impression that most people have that tube amps seem to have more power than their ratings would indicate.

From personal experience, most of the above holds true.

[rcarlberg]

my NAD and Yamaha solid-state hi-Fi chains [... speakers] from B&W...

NAD, Yamaha and B&W are three of the best-sounding brands on the market. You'd have to spend 10x their cost to duplicate their performance in tube-world.

Tube worship is a religion. Don't try to explain it.

[jkelman]

I could be wrong, but I think, for most folks, there are sufficiently great sounding solid state setups to preclude ever moving to tube.

Now, if you're a guitar player and want a certain sound,we're talkin' a whole 'nuther ballgame. When I was a gigging guitarist, until nearly the very end it was tube all the way. Fender Tele and Strats, Fender amps (I tended to like Twins, but the damn things were heavy and you had to really push them to make them sound the way they were supposed to...but man, when you did....joy!!! But seriously, I should have downsized to a Champ or even a Deluxe and gotten the same sound at lower volumes and less back-breaking.

I used solid state amps in the '80s and didn't like them. Probably better now, and certainly a lot of solid state outboard gear is great...but to get a classic Fender sound, well, for me you need Fender gear all the way..and not the new amps that have a solid state preamp. Tubes all the way, baby!!!

[rcarlberg]

Now, if you're a guitar player and want a certain sound,we're talkin' a whole 'nuther ballgame.

Because guitar players like that fat even-harmonic "warm" distortion that tubes provide.

[Mikhael]

As another guitarist, I'd like to put in that a well-designed SS amp is easily equal to a tube amp in sound, as well as being more robust and reliable. I used to use tube amps for guitar amplification for years, until I heard Holdsworth on a Pearce, and Ty Tabor/BB King using a Gibson Lab Series (which, oddly enough, Dan Pearce had a hand in designing before he started his own company). I found one, and much to my surprise, I loved it. Although Pearce as a company failed, I still use a G-1 to this day.

I'm not saying tube sound is bad; what I'm saying is that I don't want to rely on glass bottles that slowly destroy themselves over time (and change tone as they do it). These glass bottles are also obviously susceptible to vibration, breakage, etc., and my Pearce suffers from none of that. Plus, it sounds just as killer as any boutique tube amp.

As far as music duplication (as opposed to generation), as long as you're operating in the linear portion of a well-design SS amp, it should easily be equal to a tube amp operating on the same linear area. Like I said, I'm not against tubes at all. But a well-designed SS amp is more efficient, reliable, LIGHTER (I love the new PA amps), and can sound just as good. So I've made my choice; I haven't used a tube in 20 years now, and I'm just fine with that.

[trurl]

MOSFET amps can sound great! I love Ty Tabor's sound. And the beauty part is no re-tubing, which gets really costly, especially nowadays. I've heard good results with a combo of tube pres and SS power amps too (for guitar). That can be a best of both worlds setup when done right. As for audio, given an unlimited budget I'd probably be a tube purist but given real world finances I'd personally rather get a solid reliable affordable set of SS components and put all the cash into speakers I can.

[WytchCrypt]

I never had a stereo tube amp but coming from the guitar world, I've only ever had a tube amp once. It was a Mesa-Boogie 22 caliber and I sold it after a year and went back to SS. The 1st couple of months it was fantastic but as time went on the constant degradation of the sound as the tubes slowly wore out drove me crazy...it was like the old days of plugging 9volt batteries in my effects pedals and trying to tell if my sound had changed because of my playing or if the batteries were just running low on juice

[strawberrybrick]

The white turntable is a Project Debut Cabon III, the other is a Technics I've had since the 80s (the one I let my kids use). The B&K is a MOSFET amp. The Musical Fidelity X-10D is kinda interesting. The idea was that if you put a CD output through it, it would give "that tube warmth" to it.

I got a couple of of extra tubes with everything, going to try some "tube rolling" over the weekend.

For me, my one big takeaway is that my main speakers, PSB Synchrony Bs, were a great investment. I love the way they sound, no matter what, SS, Tube, ClassD, etc. is going through them.

[Trane]

Some of the reasons why tube gear is said to sound better:
From personal experience, most of the above holds true.

Another reason to go tube would be that your amp would survive a nuclaer war (seriously too)

NAD, Yamaha and B&W are three of the best-sounding brands on the market. You'd have to spend 10x their cost to duplicate their performance in tube-world.

Tube worship is a religion. Don't try to explain it.

Yup, never tyried to explain it either... it's just as aleatory as vinyl religion as well
I'm an atheist, anyway... I don't worship (except for my GF's pussy)

I could be wrong, but I think, for most folks, there are sufficiently great sounding solid state setups to preclude ever moving to tube.

Now, if you're a guitar player and want a certain sound,we're talkin' a whole 'nuther ballgame. When I was a gigging guitarist, until nearly the very end it was tube all the way. Fender Tele and Strats, Fender amps (I tended to like Twins, but the damn things were heavy and you had to really push them to make them sound the way they were supposed to...but man, when you did....joy!!! But seriously, I should have downsized to a Champ or even a Deluxe and gotten the same sound at lower volumes and less back-breaking.

Ok, guitar amplifiers is a totallly different story (especially for feedback purposes)... and I'd agree that tubes is probably much more hustifiable in that case.

[FrippWire]

After reading the above replies, I feel pretty good about my solid state McIntosh MC2255 amp and C34V pre-amp with B&W 803 Nautilus speakers.

[spellbound]

[Jvalvano]

I've been using a tube amp and tube phono preamp for over ten years. I like the lush mid range I get from tubes vs. solid state. I lost some bass punch but it was more than offset by the midrange and natural highs.

Preamp tubes generally will last around 10000 hrs. Power tubes about 5000. When I got into tubes I was concerned about going through tubes. In 13 yrs I've had to replace 1 preamp tube for failure. I have several friends who also run tube set ups and going through tubes just isn't an issue for them either. I personally don't think you need to overly worry about tube replacement.

Enjoy your new setup!

[Firth]

MOSFET amps can sound great! I love Ty Tabor's sound. And the beauty part is no re-tubing, which gets really costly, especially nowadays. I've heard good results with a combo of tube pres and SS power amps too (for guitar). That can be a best of both worlds setup when done right. As for audio, given an unlimited budget I'd probably be a tube purist but given real world finances I'd personally rather get a solid reliable affordable set of SS components and put all the cash into speakers I can.

In audio, the first MOSFET amp I know about was the Hafler DH 100. Hafler was the follow on to Dynaco which was tubes. I studied MOSFETs as high power devices in an applications seminar in 1979. In 1984, I bought the Hafler DH 100. Like tubes this DH100 could drive low impedance and it's great for driving all speakers. Some audio speakers are rated at 4 ohms and if you look closely most receivers don't say they support 4 ohms. Some have cheated with a resistor on the output that's switchable, but it's a power waste. Anyway I agree that tubes for audio are for those with unlimited wallets. Solid state can match and exceed tube sonically and electrically. Solid state ain't cheap for driving the low impedance loads either.

Very good description of the MOSFET design and similar benefits are true for tubes:


http://www.hafler.com/techsupport/pd...00_amp_man.pdf

[rcarlberg]

Everyone seems to agree there is a "tube sound."

Isn't that full stop end-of-story? Either you like that coloration added to your music or you don't. It's personal preference.

[Firth]

Everyone seems to agree there is a "tube sound."

Isn't that full stop end-of-story? Either you like that coloration added to your music or you don't. It's personal preference.

Tubes don't necessarily color sound. It's at the limits if driving speakers that amps color sound. Tubes and transistors can be operated such that coloration is neglible although some speakers are difficult to drive. Except for MOSFETs which are effectively solid state tubes, solid state amps do the equivalent of limiting heard in the volume wars for CDs. Newer Class D amps are different though.

[strawberrybrick]

Tubes don't necessarily color sound. It's at the limits if driving speakers that amps color sound. Tubes and transistors can be operated such that coloration is neglible although some speakers are difficult to drive. Except for MOSFETs which are effectively solid state tubes, solid state amps do the equivalent of limiting heard in the volume wars for CDs. Newer Class D amps are different though.

I agree. I notice no coloration with the tube preamp, I just notice that everything sounds better. Is it a personal preference? No, I honestly believe it's a step to a more realistic sound... and I think there is a certain synergy with gear. It's a nice combination the Musical Fidelity tube stuff, and the B&K ST140, which is MOSFET.

[Wounded Land]

NAD, Yamaha and B&W are three of the best-sounding brands on the market. You'd have to spend 10x their cost to duplicate their performance in tube-world.

The $380 I dropped on my NAD 316 BEE was some of the best money I ever spent. Great product.