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Thread: Prog Artists...Why do they allow Streaming?

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Streaming-on-demand has sliced into paid or even FREE downloads more than most folks realize, I think. In ye olden days of yore, when someone said "I gotta get that new ____ album!," they meant "I must pay for a copy of that album in the medium of my choice!". I find, nowadays, that EVEN IF you can drum up a little bit of (quickly fading) enthusiasm for your new music thingy, "I gotta get that new ____ album!" simply means "I might stream a few seconds of that album, if I don't get distracted by something else first." It will have then been "gotten." "Oh, yeah, I got the _____," meaning "I streamed some of it once and I totally 'get' what their doing. Got it. Say, what's that shiny object over there...?"

    Listeners now have unfettered access to more music than any person could fathom. Musicians have unfettered access to the crushing void of indifference that is the Social Media Age. Baby/bathwater.
    Yes, there is much truth in what you say, alas :P
    And the code is a play, a play is a song, a song is a film, a film is a dance...

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric View Post
    Its a complicated situation. Some labels will have it in the contract--so many "signed" artists you mention wont be able to "take it out" of the equation. We stream, but not for first 3-6 months and we will remove if someone is adamant they dont want it. We have to be relaistic in understanding that these days this is indeed how some fans "buy" . The thing that does get me most though is Amazon. Basically they have us all by the balls, you now have to allow streaming or you cant sell on Amazon as a direct sale , how many labels will want to do away with that!!! --Thats something that came in last year I believe. All I can say is that these days the only ways most indie labels can make momey is on physical and digital downloads and preferebaly by buying direct from the labels websites. So many thanks to all of you who do this--its always really appreciated.
    Likewise from us here at Precognitive. Thanks for buying direct from our site, ReR or "your favourite legal online vendors"
    And the code is a play, a play is a song, a song is a film, a film is a dance...

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post


    p.s.

    as I have stated, I like BandCamp very much too; I'd say it's about the only purely positive development in the music business I have seen in the last decade.

    But it seems to me that the over-all tide of the shape of the business is working against what they do now. Which is very worrisome.
    Yeah, this :P
    And the code is a play, a play is a song, a song is a film, a film is a dance...

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yves View Post
    In a similar vein, I would be sent records to review and at least once in every song there would be a voiceover telling us that we're listening to X Album by Y artist. Since getting the CD was my only payment for taking time to listen to, ingest, then try to put a positive spin on the record in question; and seeing as this was the new norm, I decided to stop giving the artists my time and effort to promote their music for free.
    They should have paid you something to review them. I certainly wouldn't suggest they should have sent you copies with no voiceover. All it takes is one unscrupulous reviewer, and "Good heavens! It's leaked!".

  5. #80
    facetious maximus Yves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    That's the biggest pile of starry eyed, "aren't we wonderful and SO much better than everyone else", total HORSESHIT I've ever read on this site.

    And that's really saying something.

    You mean we aren't? Everything I've read on this board has been a lie?
























    GET OUTTA HERE! WE ARE! You almost had me going there....
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  6. #81
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Steve F.

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    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarplyrjvb View Post
    ^^ I guess I don't understand your logic. Why would anyone with streaming service buy the album if they can stream it? I'd almost think you'd do better by applying the Cunieform model: put some stuff out on Soundcloud or even YouTube and whet folks' appetites with that. Then, make 'em buy it if they really want it. Otherwise, you're just essentially giving it away.
    Why do hot women put naked selfies on the internet.
    NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!

  8. #83
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    I would think that if you want to stand out, the best way to do that is to buck the trends, and go with casettes and Vynil and stay away from the digital void. But then, I am a "failed" musician, so I'm not even sure why I'm commenting in this thread. It is interesting though. The music business is not good to most musicians. Music is hardly a commodity - as soon as it becomes truly worth something it is immediately taken and usurped by anyone for almost any reason. You survive - in spite of the success. not because of it.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarplyrjvb View Post
    ^^ That I truly understand. Many prog artists aren't in it for the economics, they just want their music to be heard by as many people as possible.
    It's not that they aren't in it for the economics (few want to not at least break even on the cost of making a record)...it's a question of picking the lesser of two evils:

    1. Stream, and sacrifice money but satisfy fans who only want to hear you streaming;
    2. Don't stream and face the wrath of those in #1 above, which can be considerable.

    Also, some artists have no choice; if the label they're on us committed to streaming, then they're streamed, irrespective of their wishes,

    It's a complex question and you're looking for a simple answer. Here's the nut shell version: with streaming,go some extent, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't,

    That said, I respect labels like Panegyruc/DGM and Cuneiforn, who've said 'fuck it' to streaming. Personally I don't support streaming.

  10. #85
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    I can see both sides of the argument. The sad reality is that yesterday's business model does not work today. Streaming is where the action is and if music is a loss-leader (and that appears to be the case) then we, as fans, must support our favorite acts all the more!!!
    The Prog Corner

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric View Post
    Its a complicated situation. Some labels will have it in the contract--so many "signed" artists you mention wont be able to "take it out" of the equation. We stream, but not for first 3-6 months and we will remove if someone is adamant they dont want it. We have to be relaistic in understanding that these days this is indeed how some fans "buy" . The thing that does get me most though is Amazon. Basically they have us all by the balls, you now have to allow streaming or you cant sell on Amazon as a direct sale , how many labels will want to do away with that!!! --Thats something that came in last year I believe. All I can say is that these days the only ways most indie labels can make momey is on physical and digital downloads and preferebaly by buying direct from the labels websites. So many thanks to all of you who do this--its always really appreciated.
    I'm curious about this........do they have to stream complete tracks or are samples sufficient?

  12. #87
    Member Guitarplyrjvb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    It's not that they aren't in it for the economics (few want to not at least break even on the cost of making a record)...it's a question of picking the lesser of two evils:

    1. Stream, and sacrifice money but satisfy fans who only want to hear you streaming;
    2. Don't stream and face the wrath of those in #1 above, which can be considerable.

    Also, some artists have no choice; if the label they're on us committed to streaming, then they're streamed, irrespective of their wishes,

    It's a complex question and you're looking for a simple answer. Here's the nut shell version: with streaming,go some extent, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't,

    That said, I respect labels like Panegyruc/DGM and Cuneiforn, who've said 'fuck it' to streaming. Personally I don't support streaming.
    Well, read the responses. Economics are not a concern for some prog artists. They most surely are for others. I, too, think that the appropriate model is that employed by the likes of niche players such as Cunieform/DGM/Glass Hammer and now that I think of it, the Beatles, although The Fabs are most assuredly not niche artists! If you want their stuff, you're 'gonna pay for it!

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I've streamed plenty of albums, prog and otherwise, and gone on to buy them either in CD or download. There's even a couple where first I bought a download and then loved it so much I bought a CD. I think for acts that appeal to those who still buy music, streaming is a good way to get noticed.
    Problem is: those who hear streams and then buy hard media or digital where the artist is reasonably compensated, is the minority. If everyone were like you, we wouldn't have a problem.

    Last, as for things returning to touring as music sales plummet? Easy to say when you're young, but when you are in your 60s or 70s, having to spend as much as double the time you used to be on the road is really, really difficult. Folks don't appreciate how many artists play a gig, meet folks afterwards and then need to wind down so get to bed at midnight or later...only to have a 4am wake up for their next trip. These days, even staying in really nice hotels there is nothing glamorous about touring. You spend more time getting to the next gig, sound checking, etc, than you do playing.

    People have to do it...but don't think it's a cakewalk. Even my situation, where I got to stay in the same place for 4,days to a week was gruelling...imagine being an aging artist who is traveling to a different show almost every night....it's totally draining.

    Few can choose the route Robert Fripp & King Crimson have taken...because few can. But that is, IMO, the only civilized way to tour and it's a shame more musicians can't do it that way.

  14. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    No argument from me. If you don't want to spend your money on something you don't know, you shouldn't.

    I hope you agree that it's the height of arrogance that if it isn't available for people to hear for free, at least once, that that fact in no way gives people the right to hear it anyway by non-legal, non-authorized methods?
    Damn straight. That said, I am not so sure I agree with the first point, about having to hear an album in it's entirety.

    I used to love buying music and being completely surprised by it when I got it home to hear. More often than not it was a great experience; I feel I've been burned by taking risks just a handful of times since I started buying music in 1968-69. And I still don't "taste test" albums before I buy...even artists I don't know. Because if someone(s) I know and respect tell me enough, I have a pretty good idea I'll love it even without sampling.

    I really think we've lost that wonderful experience of surprise....

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by angelo View Post
    And sideways related: artists aren't business people, and some resort to complaining rather than getting the market fixed. Understandable, but at the same time it gives a negative connotation to streaming that may not be fully deserved.
    Well,you're right that today's musician must be a businessman as well...but there was a time when they did not...and not all musicians want to be, as it takes major time away from the art. I believe young musicians need to know the business side, but in some ways it's sad...

  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Granted. But as someone who has released as many albums as you have, you could conceivably be spending your life scouring for content to remove. Clearly it seems that the vast majority of legal content holders don't know, don't care, or grow weary of that chase.
    Not don't know, don't care or are weary of the chase. Most artists with any kind of name would need someone full time looking for all the copyright infringements. And they cannot afford it.

    So don't mistake lack of action for lack of caring; it's just that the problem is so big that many artists and labels simply don't have the resources to properly monitor it. That ain't lack of caring; that's lack of resources. Plain and simple.

  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    I wouldn't buy a car without test driving it first. I don't but clothes without having tried them on first. Why should music be any different than other long lasting products? I have bought many albums after having listened to them on spotify or youtube. If anything, I would suggest, that free streaming actually increases sales not the opposite.
    Do you buy a book without reading it first? Do you pay to see a movie without seeing it first? Do you go into a restaurant and buy something off their menu without trying it first? Do you buy things from the grocery store without trying them first?

    There are plenty of counter-arguments to your philosophy ...
    Last edited by jkelman; 11-19-2015 at 11:42 AM.

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarplyrjvb View Post
    Well, read the responses. Economics are not a concern for some prog artists.
    I did. The operative word is some. I engage with plenty of musicians who are not trying to be megastars or millionaires. They're just trying to put a roof over their heads, food on the table, maybe have a family. And for those who do not pursue their music as a profession, while there are absolutely some great bands in that camp, imagine how they'd be if they could focus on their art full-time?

    Why is trying to make a living any different than whatever you do to make a living? And there was a time, just a couple decades ago, where they could. I know local musicians who made a living in wedding bands, as studio and concert hired session players and more. But as things have eroded every way to make a living, well, there anthill but ultimately be some impact on the music.

    I can tell you from direct personal experience, that if you can play 4-6 nights a week, as it used to be in clubs, you can make a reasonable wage...and you simply cannot help but get better both individually and as a group. That bands now spend more time getting to/from gigs, sound checking, etc, than they do actually writing, rehearsing and performing has absolutely had an impact on the music.

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    I can see both sides of the argument. The sad reality is that yesterday's business model does not work today. Streaming is where the action is and if music is a loss-leader (and that appears to be the case) then we, as fans, must support our favorite acts all the more!!!

  20. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    They should have paid you something to review them. I certainly wouldn't suggest they should have sent you copies with no voiceover. All it takes is one unscrupulous reviewer, and "Good heavens! It's leaked!".
    Absolutely not. If the artist pays for a review how can you, as a reader, trust the reviewer to be totally truthful? Promotional material is part of the way the industry works. But paying a reviewer for a review? That's not a review; that's a press sheet.

    That said, unscrupulous reviewers is indeed a problem. It's why some companies only send out digital promos at 192k, which is refuse. I've never leaked an album, I've always ensured the folks I deal with can trust me in every way...it's how I get information others might not, because they trust if they say "off the record," it is. But beyond that, reviewers who leak the music ultimately get found out (a lot of media, hard and soft, is watermarked so it's possible to tell who leaked it) and lose access to promotional materials pretty quickly.

    But it is absolutely shameful ... The only way to properly work woth artists and labels,is through a trust built up over time. It's served me really well...and it ultimately comes home to roost with those who don't consider such things.

  21. #96
    Member Guitarplyrjvb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Do you buy a book without reading it first? Do you pay to see a movie without seeing it first? Do you go into a restaurant and buy something off their menu without trying it first? Do you buy things from the grocery store without trying them first?

    There are plenty of counter-arguments to your philosophy ...
    Well, sure. But those counter-arguments don't change the fact that many music consumers want to hear music before they buy it, or consider it bought when they stream it from a Spotify/Apple Music. If those options are made available, people will surely take advantage of them. Wishing it weren't so doesn't change the economic reality of the biz.

    I guess my only point was: if you want to make money, you shouldn't be offering full albums for streaming and should employ the DGM/Cunieform model.
    Last edited by Guitarplyrjvb; 11-19-2015 at 11:53 AM.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    So don't mistake lack of action for lack of caring; it's just that the problem is so big that many artists and labels simply don't have the resources to properly monitor it. That ain't lack of caring; that's lack of resources. Plain and simple.
    I have not made that mistake, John. All you did was add "or lack the resources" to my broader point.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Do you buy a book without reading it first? Do you pay to see a movie without seeing it first? Do you go into a restaurant and buy something off their menu without trying it first? Do you buy things from the grocery store without trying them first?

    There are plenty of counter-arguments to your philosophy ...
    I never go to a movie without seeing a trailer. Just to argue. lol Sorry.

  24. #99
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    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  25. #100
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    She doesn't have any reason to; hundreds of thousands of people are going to buy it regardless of whether or not they hear it first. It's a whole different deal for somebody as high profile as she is.

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