FEATURED CD - Van Der Graaf Generator : Pawn Hearts

[Rick L.]

That was too deep even for a Greek philosopher, so I will ponder on it a bit more

Socrates! You magnificent bastard! I read your book!

[Zappathustra]

Socrates! You magnificent bastard! I read your book!

Oh, it wasn't me, just some random disciple called Plato or something

[Buddhabreath]

Is it time itself which no longer has any meaning in still life? - or is it the passing away of time?

I tend to think the latter - which is perhaps less metaphysically striking, but more existentially accurate.

Well my reading is that the reference is to time itself rather than (ultimately) passing away time. The act can be viewed itself as a reaction to the meaningless of time and what we do with it. As when noted scholar of mythology Joseph Campbell was once asked what is the meaning of life, he asked in return "What is the meaning of a flower?". Implying that it just exists and one can simply enjoy it's beauty rather then impose the externality of the observer's concept of meaning upon it. Hence my original question regarding the lyric. To further quote the great Mr. Campbell:

People say that what we’re all seeking is a meaning for life. I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think that what we’re seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances with our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive.

Perhaps like many of you, I can remember the rapture of being alive. Then I got married.

[Buddhabreath]

Oh, it wasn't me, just some random disciple called Plato or something

Yes, Socrates left no written record. Nearly all of what we know of him is through his student Plato. Rick, please go to the back of the class and stop listening to Jon Anderson lyrics.

[Rick L.]

Sorry. My total mass has clearly not retained.

[Zappathustra]

I await the results of your ponderings in great anticipation.

Well, if your comment is on a musical basis then it is clear: he needs to revisit after all these years and let us know if there really was no meaning.
Bit for some reason I thought you were literal to the core, so in this case the "follow up to Still Life" would be an afterlife experience, in which we would know that there was never any meaning.

That Magma concert must have eradicated my little mental faculty in any case...

[Buddhabreath]

^^^
it seems to me your faculties are quite intact. Quite the astute observation (unless I am misreading you) that an afterlife, being itself immortality, would in any event render this life meaningless.

P.S. One must expect to lose a few million brain cells at a good Magma concert.

[Plasmatopia]

^^^
it seems to me your faculties are quite intact. Quite the astute observation (unless I am misreading you) that an afterlife, being itself immortality, would in any event render this life meaningless.

Personally, I think the idea of immortality may actually be a reference to the idea of eternity:

"Eternity has nothing to do with time. Eternity is that dimension of here and now that all thinking in temporal terms cuts off.... the experience of eternity right here and now, in all things, whether thought of as good or as evil, is the function of life.” - Joseph Campbell

[Buddhabreath]

^^^
Perhaps. Reminds me of the immortal words of William Blake:

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour

[Plasmatopia]

Eternity is also experienced on those days when PE is extra slow to load.

[mogrooves]

If you don't like his screaming vocal "Impaled upon the arrow!", then the fiery essence of PH is not for you IMO. That searing vocal assault ....

Well, I'm not referring to matters of timbre and intensity particularly.

I used to consider the second incarnation inferior to the first. The flow of lyrics in relation to the music seemed less natural and more forced in the second case.

Yes.

[chalkpie]

Did a buzzed up headphones lights off spin last night of the new stereo remaster.

File under: "An abum that you've heard loads of times but still manages to get better and better each time". Evan's jazzy drumming is so wonderful here, you can essentially focus on his playing the entire time and enjoy it. With headphones, I really get the studio vision of Hammill's voice - the placement, panning, overdubs, effects, reverb, etc etc...so much care was taken in this department. Amazing mix down. It took me years to realize but this is masterpiece/perfection level to my ears. I am going to do it again tonight and see what else pops up or out....

[Progatron]

^^ That's all it took for me to launch into a sure to be massive VDGG phase. CDs being pulled from the shelves now. Now playing: House With No Door, about the most perfect track I could be listening to on a sunny Sunday morning.

Pawn Hearts will not be far behind.

[Munster]

Listening on earphones to all the stereo remixes in the Charisma Years boxset is great, but Pawn Hearts is the finest. The boxset’s initial remastering of the album is excellent and then the stereo mix manages to build on that. Pure heaven. I first heard Pawn Hearts more than 50 years ago, beaming in (and breaking up) late at night on shortwave radio broadcast from a country 500 miles away. It was literally and metaphorically music from an alien land. I had never heard anything like it. It remains my go-to album when the craziness of the world starts to get to me.

Edit: It is a very uplifting album lyrically, even though musically dense and brooding: "What choice is there left but to live / What choice is there left but to try" (Lemmings); "I'm just a man / And killers, angels all are these" (Man Erg); and "It doesn't feel so very bad now / I think the end is the start / Begin to feel very glad now / All thing are apart / All things are a part" (A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers)

[aith01]

Ah man, now you're having me regretting not springing for that Charisma years box set a few months back.

I should dust off my old VDGG discs too now. What a great band.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Well, if your comment is on a musical basis then it is clear: he needs to revisit after all these years and let us know if there really was no meaning. [...] for some reason I thought you were literal to the core, so in this case the "follow up to Still Life" would be an afterlife experience, in which we would know that there was never any meaning.

Like Gorgias said; there's no meaning, and if there were then we as humans wouldn't be able to know its composition. Sense it or imagine it, but not know.

^^^
Perhaps. Reminds me of the immortal words of William Blake:

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour

Intended as comment in imagined dialogue with Ovid on the latter's Metamorphoses singular (read Latin basic on "[grains of] sand" vs. "dust"), not as universalist trope on truth or anything else.

Nah; Pawn Hearts still stands firm.

[Zappathustra]

Like Gorgias said; there's no meaning, and if there were then we as humans wouldn't be able to know its composition. Sense it or imagine it, but not know.

this makes me to want to read Gorgias again. He was a cool guy, and let's not forget that everything we know about him comes from the text of an adversary. Maybe a disciple of Gorgias would have depicted Socrates as a drunkard moron.

But in order to read it I first need to find it, in the mess of what my books are. Supposed it is not in the great bulk of lost books of mine.

I love Plato's texts so much, that they render all other readings kind of useless. He's the ultimate "fun to read" writer.

[Munster]

Evan's jazzy drumming is so wonderful here, you can essentially focus on his playing the entire time and enjoy it.

Yes, Evans is an amazing drummer. Prompted by per anporth's earlier post I relistened to the Rimini concert on the Charisma Years boxset (which, as he says, is excellent) and was blown away by Evans' performance on (In The) Black Room. But Evans is great throughout the boxset, particularly on Pawn Hearts. In fact, in the entire boxset my only gripe with the stereo remix is that Evans' percussive outro on Lemmings is not as prominent as it is in the remastered (or original) version of the song. A small complaint but that passage (from 10:30 minutes on) has always been a highpoint on the album for me.

[jkelman]

At the time, alongside King Crimson's Lizard, the most nightmare-inducing albums I'd ever heard. And still are....

[starless and bible black]

At the time, alongside King Crimson's Lizard, the most nightmare-inducing albums I'd ever heard. And still are....

Yes indeed; VdGG's Pawn Hearts along with KC's Lizard is among the most nightmare inducing Prog LPs I've ever heard. Deciding to give Peter Hamill & Co a try, I picked up Pawn Hearts along with H To He... in their recent deluxe editions (2CD-1DVD with 5.1 mixes) a few months ago. I like both of those albums and I see why Prog fans still talk about them decades after they first came out.

[Trane]

At the time, alongside King Crimson's Lizard, the most nightmare-inducing albums I'd ever heard. And still are....

I've heard Lizard and Pawn much later (most likely 76 or 78) than I did with Meddle.

I must've been 9 or 10 or so the first time I heard Echoes on the radio late at night with headphones on (to make believe my parents I was asleep) and this really stopped my from sleeping, because of those nightmarish sounds (not just the "sonar" and the seagulls)
In definitely wasn't prepared for THAT !!!

Now , when I heart Meddle,(whether Echoes or OOTD,IAGTCYILP), there is no way that I'm going to have a nightmare overnight.

[Kcrimso]

Still Life is my personal favourite from VdGG, but the insane Pawn Hearts is a tough contender. I wrote a review of the album: https://pienemmatpurot.com/review-va...n-hearts-1971/