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Thread: Formats wars? - CD (DVD/Blu-ray) vs. Vinyl vs. digital format

  1. #1

    Formats wars? - CD (DVD/Blu-ray) vs. Vinyl vs. digital format

    Where do you believe it is all going? The other recent thread here touches on this issue and seems to generate quite large interest but discusses it with relation to the support for the artist. But where do you see these formats going in the future?

    Of a particular interest to me is the fate of the CD format. I own a quite extensive collection of CDs and to a smaller extent collection of vinyls, the latter mostly from the pre-CD era. Do not think I will ever get rid of these. I view the CD format as a perfect medium for the progressive type of music, where even graphics plays important role in the total perception of the album. The graphics part certainly applies (perhaps even more so) to vinyls but when it comes to music, the length, extras ... and yes remasters (!?) CD format (including DVDs and Blu-rays) have no equals. Esoteric reissues and S. Wilson's remasters are perfect examples of this ... even if I am not even sure how many different CD versions I have of KC's - In the Court of the Crimson King ... 4 or 5 plus the vinyl?

    The collector in me loves to have the ability to touch, see and feel the physical media. At the time it was quite a feat to move away from vinyls to the new medium which was CD. What year was it, 1985 and Tubular Bells? These many years later still love the format, albeit, absorbing all of the improvements it had gone through sound wise (higher bits and bit rates / remasters) and packaging (digipack, mini LP formats). The latter plays also a role in saving the space required for these.

    A lot of people seem to embrace back the vinyl format. Frankly I do not get that. Why would you pay almost a double price for a vinyl of the same (and often more with extras) on CD? Was raised on vinyl and was glad to move away from it. It seems the trend is in reverse right now. Is it nostalgia for older folks or a sort of "nobilitation" for younger people?

    The digital format offers a good sound and all but it seems to me almost like a half of experience I get with a CD or vinyl. Not shying away from it and use downloads whenever it is the only option to get the music but certainly it is not my preferred medium.

    Your thoughts?

    PC
    "Confusion Will Be My Epitaph"

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by PCMusic View Post
    Frankly I do not get that. Why would you pay almost a double price for a vinyl of the same (and often more with extras) on CD?
    Because the CD has nothing to offer compared to the digital file. The sound is the same, and the artwork, its physical aspect, is insignificant in my opinion.

    In both these cases, the vinyl has to offer something different. Lots of people would say even better. Sound and artwork.

    It's not nostalgia. We like it better. We always liked it better. You don't get it, and even now that I explain it from my part, you'll still not get it. As I am not going to get your own preference for cds, which is just fine.

  3. #3
    Member interbellum's Avatar
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    The funny thing is that when the CD was introduced you were willing to pay almost double the price for a CD.

    For me the price isn't an issue (which is of course a luxery). I also have lots of LP's from the pre-CD age and sometimes I buy new ones, but the most new stuff I buy on CD because they're more user-friendly.

  4. #4
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by interbellum View Post
    The funny thing is that when the CD was introduced you were willing to pay almost double the price for a CD.

    For me the price isn't an issue (which is of course a luxery). I also have lots of LP's from the pre-CD age and sometimes I buy new ones, but the most new stuff I buy on CD because they're more user-friendly.
    They initially charged more for CDs to cover the tooling costs for production equipment. They promised that once that cost was recouped, they would lower the price. They of course reneged.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    Because the CD has nothing to offer compared to the digital file. The sound is the same, and the artwork, its physical aspect, is insignificant in my opinion.

    In both these cases, the vinyl has to offer something different. Lots of people would say even better. Sound and artwork.

    It's not nostalgia. We like it better. We always liked it better. You don't get it, and even now that I explain it from my part, you'll still not get it. As I am not going to get your own preference for cds, which is just fine.

    Fair enough, it seems we are at the other spectrum of this thing. Although, I beg to differ with your statement "the CD has nothing to offer compared to the digital file" as well as to some other ones. I guess it's a case of preference.
    "Confusion Will Be My Epitaph"

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by PCMusic View Post
    Fair enough, it seems we are at the other spectrum of this thing. Although, I beg to differ with your statement "the CD has nothing to offer compared to the digital file" as well as to some other ones. I guess it's a case of preference.
    I am only stating how I see this, I don't imply that the CD does not have its advantages for other people. There have been mighty arguments over this issue in the past, and as far as I am concerned for no specific reason. Vinyl lovers and CD lovers are both tragic minorities nowadays anyway, but they share the same love for music, and its physical presence.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    I am only stating how I see this, I don't imply that the CD does not have its advantages for other people. There have been mighty arguments over this issue in the past, and as far as I am concerned for no specific reason. Vinyl lovers and CD lovers are both tragic minorities nowadays anyway, but they share the same love for music, and its physical presence.
    I figured there had to be discussions of this in the past, would be surprised if there weren't any. "Mighty" sounds awfully "mighty", hope we do not go anywhere close to this if it means heated discussions. Perhaps at this point the trends are more obvious and people have a clearer view/opinion of it. It seems the topic still generates quite a lot of buzz.

    Not sure I would call the attachment to "physical presence" (be it CD or vinyl) tragic. If it gives you a lasting joy of taking it out off the shelf (box) and while listening to music read whatever information is in the booklet, and on top of it without being forced to look at the screen of the computer it is for me a sheer bliss
    "Confusion Will Be My Epitaph"

  8. #8
    Member Lebofsky's Avatar
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    Fun related story. There's that indie band Shellac which over the years proudly put everything on vinyl and, reluctantly, also on CD. Their album "1000 Hurts" came out and at the record store I had the choice to buy the vinyl (in an awesome package) for $13 or the CD in a basic package also for $13. Despite the inconvenience, I bought the vinyl. When I got home I opened up the vinyl cover and discovered it included a copy of the CD for free. HA! I chose wisely, it seems.

    - Matt

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by interbellum View Post
    The funny thing is that when the CD was introduced you were willing to pay almost double the price for a CD.

    For me the price isn't an issue (which is of course a luxery). I also have lots of LP's from the pre-CD age and sometimes I buy new ones, but the most new stuff I buy on CD because they're more user-friendly.
    To be honest I do not recall if the prices of CDs were that much higher then from the vinyls, perhaps they were. It was a novelty so had to try it anyway
    Certainly was not buying as much as I have been in the last three decades. I think I have to curb it significantly. As somebody wrote in the signature "So much music ... so little time" ... not that I am complaining
    "Confusion Will Be My Epitaph"

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebofsky View Post
    Fun related story. There's that indie band Shellac which over the years proudly put everything on vinyl and, reluctantly, also on CD. Their album "1000 Hurts" came out and at the record store I had the choice to buy the vinyl (in an awesome package) for $13 or the CD in a basic package also for $13. Despite the inconvenience, I bought the vinyl. When I got home I opened up the vinyl cover and discovered it included a copy of the CD for free. HA! I chose wisely, it seems.

    - Matt
    That's what I call a perfect example of making peace in the "war of formats"
    "Confusion Will Be My Epitaph"

  11. #11
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Remember Casette, Minidisc, DAT ?

  12. #12
    Member yesman1955's Avatar
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    I was happy when CDs came along with car & portable CD players not far behind. The sound quality & portability were unmatched. IMHO. Difficult to play an LP in your SUV!

  13. #13
    Member yesman1955's Avatar
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    AFAIKR: CD prices at the dawn of their age (mid-80s) were close to $20 each. The prices slowly dropped to $15 by mid-90s. LPs at that same point were $8 to $10.

  14. #14
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    Vinyl lovers and CD lovers are both tragic minorities nowadays anyway.
    Well, for me there hasn't been a better time for collecting CDs. The avalanche of newly released titles plus the accessibility of old releases is a true embarrassment of riches. As a minority we've never been spoilt as much as we are today. Just my 2 pennies.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Remember Casette, Minidisc, DAT ?
    Yeah, used them as well except DAT. In case you haven't noticed not only vinyl but it seems cassette makes a comeback as well. Quite a few new titles are are available now on cassette. Seems ridiculous does it not? Not exactly sure what would be the appeal there?!
    "Confusion Will Be My Epitaph"

  16. #16
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lebofsky View Post
    Fun related story. There's that indie band Shellac which over the years proudly put everything on vinyl and, reluctantly, also on CD. Their album "1000 Hurts" came out and at the record store I had the choice to buy the vinyl (in an awesome package) for $13 or the CD in a basic package also for $13. Despite the inconvenience, I bought the vinyl. When I got home I opened up the vinyl cover and discovered it included a copy of the CD for free. HA! I chose wisely, it seems.
    So... You really wanted the CD all along?

    Quote Originally Posted by PCMusic
    Frankly I do not get that. Was raised on vinyl and was glad to move away from it.
    Me too. There isn't anything that LPs do better (...or even as well). When the value of my record collection came up from zero (thank you hipsters!) I sold the whole kit & kaboodle and never looked back. The ONLY reason for ever buying one these days is to dub it off as fast as possible, clean it up as much as possible, and burn it to CD-R. There are, unfortunately, still a lot of great old albums that have never made the jump to lightspeed.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 03-18-2019 at 09:54 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    So... You really wanted the CD all along?



    Me too. There isn't anything that LPs do better (...or even as well). When the value of my record collection came up from zero (thank you hipsters!) I sold the whole kit & kaboodle and never looked back. The ONLY reason for ever buying one these days is to dub it off as fast as possible, clean it up as much as possible, and burn it to CD-R. There are, unfortunately, still a lot of great old albums that have never made the jump to lightspeed.
    Welcome in the club
    It gets worse though as some of the new titles are released only on a vinyl and you are basically forced to buy it. If you buy off the bandcamp you are somewhat saved as these come with downloadable high quality digital files. If not, they sometimes come with a code that lets you download digital files. Unfortunately these are open game as they may only offer these in mp3 ... in which case I will have to, at leisure time that almost never happens, rip it off the vinyl into wav files.
    "Confusion Will Be My Epitaph"

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post
    Well, for me there hasn't been a better time for collecting CDs. The avalanche of newly released titles plus the accessibility of old releases is a true embarrassment of riches. As a minority we've never been spoilt as much as we are today. Just my 2 pennies.
    Once again the language gap won the day. The "tragic minority" was referring to how little of a minority we both are, tragically low in numbers. Otherwise not tragic, especially the CD people who can get what they want in good prices.

  19. #19
    For people who care about how the music sounds, we're at the stage of hi-res downloads really. Since DVD-audio and Blu-ray audio didn't really take off (although you have the XTC releases, etc.) people are getting the 24bit/96kHz and better downloads. I bought a bunch of these but I think I agree with the scientists who think CD quality 16bit/44.1kHz is plenty good quality for the human ear.

  20. #20
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    ^I'm not really a 5.1 guy but I can't help but think that the reason DVD-A failed was the sort of releases that came out in its early days. Rhino did a lot of AOR/singer-songwriter albums on DVD-A...classics they may be, but the music just doesn't lend itself to that sort of treatment, IMHO. And also there were all those Bob Dylan SACDs with 5.1 mixes...why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    Because the CD has nothing to offer compared to the digital file. The sound is the same, and the artwork, its physical aspect, is insignificant in my opinion.

    In both these cases, the vinyl has to offer something different. Lots of people would say even better. Sound and artwork.

    It's not nostalgia. We like it better. We always liked it better. You don't get it, and even now that I explain it from my part, you'll still not get it. As I am not going to get your own preference for cds, which is just fine.
    What about all these modern records which are just sourced from digital files, not the original tapes?

  21. #21
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    CD for me, I hope they don't stop making them. If they do I'll have to download lossless files and burn to cd myself- assuming disc drives haven't died out too!

  22. #22
    I'm no audiophile so to my ears, vinyl has nothing worthwhile to offer. I used to have an extensive record collection, nearly all of which was replaced by CD. The few items I could never replace, I didn't, but I got rid of all my vinyl around 2001. My memory of vinyl was: too easy to scratch, too easily warped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    Because the CD has nothing to offer compared to the digital file. The sound is the same, and the artwork, its physical aspect, is insignificant in my opinion.
    Agreed. I'll add that digital is cheaper and faster (you aren't having to pay for packaging and you aren't waiting for postage), and more convenient for me personally. The only time I've listened to CDs in recent years is when I'm going somewhere in my car and didn't want to take my ipod. I'd rather risk some CDs in my car than for instance leaving my ipod in my car. If I am forced to buy music via CD, I immediately convert it to mp3 or apple format and keep it on my computer, otherwise I just download from the source.

    But again, I want to preface this with I'm no audiophile. I prefer mp3/m4a over FLAC because FLAC takes up too much space and I wouldn't notice any difference in sound quality.

  23. #23
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    AFAIC, I tend to see that the CD/vinyl feud is certainly becoming a thing of the past, as most vinyl freaks are still admitting that they still need CDs for musical and physical limitations of the vinyl medium (namely time length)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    Because the CD has nothing to offer compared to the digital file. The sound is the same, and the artwork, its physical aspect, is insignificant in my opinion.

    In both these cases, the vinyl has to offer something different. Lots of people would say even better. Sound and artwork.

    It's not nostalgia. We like it better. We always liked it better. You don't get it, and even now that I explain it from my part, you'll still not get it. As I am not going to get your own preference for cds, which is just fine.
    I disagree that CD brings nothing over the dematerialized equivalent or even vinyl (if only for the "perenity" of the music stored in the disc)

    A well-made CD artwork, avoiding the stupid plastic trays (digipaks included) and jewel case is just as charming as the vinyl. Hold a mini-Lp of Nursery Cryme or Floyd's Animals in your hands, and you will get the same magic feeling than if you hold the vinyl. It's just smaller, and that's all. (And size doesn't matter, it's how you use it )
    Now why are the CD manufacturers and labels still insisting on putting those frigging plastic covers is beyond me, as it ruins/cheapens the looks of the whole thing and add cheap but really and totally unnecessary other ingredient: plastic
    And outside a maybe-pertinent sonic issues (I hear it, but it remains to be proven which is better), vinyls are totally encumbering and fixed/stuck/glued to the direct vicinity of your hi-fi, whereas those silvery thingies can wander into your bedroom, car, cottage or even in the subway or plane.
    Don't get me wrong, I loved vinyls in the 70's, but that's because we had no other choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCMusic View Post
    To be honest I do not recall if the prices of CDs were that much higher then from the vinyls, perhaps they were. It was a novelty so had to try it anyway
    Quote Originally Posted by yesman1955 View Post
    AFAIKR: CD prices at the dawn of their age (mid-80s) were close to $20 each. The prices slowly dropped to $15 by mid-90s. LPs at that same point were $8 to $10.
    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    They initially charged more for CDs to cover the tooling costs for production equipment. They promised that once that cost was recouped, they would lower the price. They of course reneged.
    don't know about that, cos given the high inflation of the 80's & 90's, CDs cost roughly half in the mid-90's than the first generation of the mid-80's.

    At first, CDs seemed horrendously expensive to me when they came on the market.... somewhere above 20.00 (even 25.00 $ Cdn), whereas most of my jazz & JR/F vinyl acquisitions of those same years were either mid-price series (6.00 max) or used records (between 3.00 and 6.00)... Most newly-released Lp's of the early 90's were often above 10.00, as I remembered it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Remember Casette, Minidisc, DAT ?
    Cassette are apparently making a return amongst idiotic hipsters. Unused blank metal tapes can go for a fortune.
    Never used minidiscs, but my ex-radio-colleagues are still using DAT technology regularly (though tapes are becoming very scarce)

    Quote Originally Posted by yesman1955 View Post
    I was happy when CDs came along with car & portable CD players not far behind. The sound quality & portability were unmatched. IMHO. Difficult to play an LP in your SUV!
    Well, the CDs only copied the cassette's portability advantages with an added excellent sound and a medium that didn't sonically erode with successive playing.
    I was a late convert to CD, but once I did, I was so overwhelmed by its user-friendliness and portability that I stopped vinyl instantly (not that I was buying many albums in the late 80's & early 90's).
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  24. #24
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post
    Well, for me there hasn't been a better time for collecting CDs. The avalanche of newly released titles plus the accessibility of old releases is a true embarrassment of riches. As a minority we've never been spoilt as much as we are today. Just my 2 pennies.
    New CD release aren't exactly cheap, and certainly not dirt cheap, IMHO.
    Yeah, sure, time's excellent for buying up used CD and long-time mid-priced and repackaged into small boxsets albums, that's for sure, but what do I even need buying up stuff dirt cheap when I'm either not caring much for that music (that I haven't cared to own, yet as I'm in my mid-50's) and have space issues/problems, so much so that I'm considering getting rid of part of what I own.
    No need to clutter up my living space with dirt-cheap music that I don't care for and will not listen.

    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Me too. There isn't anything that LPs do better (...or even as well). When the value of my record collection came up from zero (thank you hipsters!) I sold the whole kit & kaboodle and never looked back. The ONLY reason for ever buying one these days is to dub it off as fast as possible, clean it up as much as possible, and burn it to CD-R. There are, unfortunately, still a lot of great old albums that have never made the jump to lightspeed.
    If I read you well, I suppose you're thanking the 80's & 90's hipsters that hated vinyls and only cared for CDs??

    Quote Originally Posted by PCMusic View Post
    Welcome in the club
    It gets worse though as some of the new titles are released only on a vinyl and you are basically forced to buy it. If you buy off the bandcamp you are somewhat saved as these come with downloadable high quality digital files. If not, they sometimes come with a code that lets you download digital files. Unfortunately these are open game as they may only offer these in mp3 ... in which case I will have to, at leisure time that almost never happens, rip it off the vinyl into wav files.
    Forced vinyl sales is a fairly recent phenomenon, IMHO.
    I'm not necessarily thinking of bands not releasing CDs anymore (Hooffoot and Aquaserge tried that, but had to come back to their senses), as most of the bands are offering both mediums now (but in what quantities??) , but I often see that the CD is not available anymore, which probably means that they still sell quicker than vinyls.
    But I am thinking much more of boxsets like Crimson or the very recent Esoteric reissue of VdGG's Aerosol Grey Machine.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  25. #25
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Yeah, sure, time's excellent for buying up used CD and long-time mid-priced and repackaged into small boxsets albums, that's for sure, but what do I even need buying up stuff dirt cheap when I'm either not caring much for that music (that I haven't cared to own, yet as I'm in my mid-50's) and have space issues/problems, so much so that I'm considering getting rid of part of what I own.
    No need to clutter up my living space with dirt-cheap music that I don't care for and will not listen.
    Well, nobody forces anyone into buying music he/she does not need. And not everything is dirt cheap, at least not from my perspective, where most releases I crave for, new or old, are not exactly $1 ones gathering dust in physical and virtual bins.

    However, the stuff is out there, getting released and resold, so if you know precisely what you want you can usually find it, in most instances, at a reasonable price (less than $20 per regular album). I do not have space issues, because I have always been pretty selective about my purchases and occasionally go for a purge. And I do not expect music to cost peanuts, quite the contrary I am open to pay full/premium price for what I want, preferably directly from the artists, labels and local stores to help them carry on.

    Frankly speaking, in the last years I have been spending significantly more on CDs than ever before, and not due to buying a ton of cheap second-hand discs, but because the new stuff getting released, archival or fresh, is much more to my liking now (my tastes and horizons have expanded a lot too), and also there is a great selection of long OOP titles readily available within an affordable (but usually not that cheap) price range. The latter thanks to the people ditching their precious collections.

    For a music fan and CD collector, it's the golden age now. No question about that.
    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 03-19-2019 at 11:48 AM.

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