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Thread: AAJ Review: Yes, The Yes Album (Definitive Edition)

  1. #1

    AAJ Review: Yes, The Yes Album (Definitive Edition)



    My review of Steven Wilson's remix of Yes' The Yes Album (Definitive Edition) , today at All About Jazz.

    While later albums like Fragile (Atlantic, 1971) and the epic Close to the Edge (Atlantic, 1972) would establish Yes as superstars of the progressive rock world (and, to some extent, beyond), it was The Yes Album, also released by Atlantic but nine months earlier in February of 1971, that announced Yes a group with still-untapped potential but a group that had finally arrived.

    It was a tumultuous time for a group whose career has subsequently been defined by conflict and revolving door personnel. First formed in 1968, by 1971 Yes already had two albums to its credit, and kudos from important critics including Rolling Stone's Lester Bangs and Melody Maker's Tony Wilson, who cited Yes and Led Zeppelin as the two British bands "most likely to succeed."

    Neither Yes (Atlantic, 1968) nor Time and a Word (Atlantic, 1969) charted significantly, but both recordings established Yes as a progressive group with grander (and, perhaps, grandiose) plans; it was singer Jon Anderson 's decision to bring an orchestra into Time and a Word that, in fact, raised existing tension with guitarist Peter Banks to the boiling point, resulting in his firing prior to the album's release.

    Continue reading here...

  2. #2
    The "Platinum" certification was not instituted until 1976, five years after TYA's release.

  3. #3
    Excellent review. I fully agree with your synopsis of the personnel changes. Had Jon not pushed the orchestra and a more creative and original direction, their third album would have been another mediocre shadow of the previous two albums.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post
    The "Platinum" certification was not instituted until 1976, five years after TYA's release.
    true, but it still made the designation....that said, I added 'ultimately' to the sentence to,make it clearer. Thanks for the catch!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    true, but it still made the designation....that said, I added 'ultimately' to the sentence to,make it clearer. Thanks for the catch!
    (BTW, I, too, enjoyed the review.)

    My concern regarding the certification is that it does not really tell us anything. The album could have received the cert in 2011, forty years after the release; or, it could have sold a million in 1971, but not been certified until 1976; or, some other sequence. (My guess is that it sold mostly after Fragile or CTTE.)

    The chart position gives us some idea, at least. But, even that only a single piece of data and is missing other accompanying pieces of info.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post
    (BTW, I, too, enjoyed the review.)

    My concern regarding the certification is that it does not really tell us anything. The album could have received the cert in 2011, forty years after the release; or, it could have sold a million in 1971, but not been certified until 1976; or, some other sequence. (My guess is that it sold mostly after Fragile or CTTE.)

    The chart position gives us some idea, at least. But, even that only a single piece of data and is missing other accompanying pieces of info.
    I understand your point, but when writing reviews like this - especially when I've become kinda known for being information dense - I have to consider the balance between too much information and not enough. And what that balance is varies from person to person. My primary objective in citing this info is simply to bolster the fact that TYA was the group's first breakthrough recording, the first to both significantly chart and sell. I don't know if Yes or Time and a Word ever reached a million sales anywhere, but they failed to chart in any significant fashion, so TYA's accomplishments, even if not entirely documented here, at least provide some indication of how much better it was received, both by the critics and the public.

    We may not ultimately agree - though I appreciate your kind words about the review () - but hopefully this at least explains reasons for the choices I made...and I do appreciate your catch. No, adding "ultimately" doesn't indicate when TYA went platinum, but it is better than without the word, and I think the chart position makes the point well enough.

    Cheers!
    John

  7. #7
    I see what you're saying. May I suggest a construction like this:

    The Yes Album became the group's first real commercial success. In the UK, it was their breakthrough album and went to #4 on the charts, while in the US, it went to #40 (eventually, selling a million copies there) and served to whet the American appetite for their next album, Fragile.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post
    I see what you're saying. May I suggest a construction like this:

    The Yes Album became the group's first real commercial success. In the UK, it was their breakthrough album and went to #4 on the charts, while in the US, it went to #40 (eventually, selling a million copies there) and served to whet the American appetite for their next album, Fragile.
    Sorry, but while I am absolutely willing to make corrections, I am afraid I draw the line at rewriting my text...and I hope you understand.

    In terms of content, omitting the mention addition of Fragile, I don't see much difference between what you have written and what I have:

    The Yes Album became the group's first real commercial success, ultimately certified platinum for selling over a million copies in the United States alone and charting #40 there and #4 in the UK.
    I am saying pretty much the same thing, albeit in a different order and using "ultimately" rather than "eventually," which afaic are interchangeable. I didn't (and still don't) feel the need to suggest it was an appetite whetter [sic], as I was more interested in identifying that it introduced a number of stylistic signatures, as in epic song-writing, Howe's stylistic breadth as a guitarist and Anderson's ability to write shorter forms that, to some extent, challenged typical pop song-writing convention, which is how I continue after that sentence.

    So, thanks again for pointing out the need to indicate the platinum status wasn't achieved at the time, but beyond that, I'm not prepared to make your other changes as those fall into the category of what you would like to see rather than what I intended to articulate... And I hope you understand. I am absolutely not thin-skinned about folks pointing out errors that need to be fixed, as I think I've demonstrated here at PE a number of times; but when it comes to changing the prose, especially when it alters both voice and intent? Sorry, but I'm just not prepared to go that far.

    Best!
    John

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Sorry, but while I am absolutely willing to make corrections, I am afraid I draw the line at rewriting my text...and I hope you understand.
    Good for you! Everybody's an effing editor. I get the same thing with my design work. If you can do better yourself, then go ahead and do it and see how easy it isn't. It's always easier to nitpick than to create.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  10. #10
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    As usual, a thoughtful review.

  11. #11
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    Another excellent review , thanks for sharing your reviews with us , I always enjoy reading them.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    Good for you! Everybody's an effing editor. I get the same thing with my design work. If you can do better yourself, then go ahead and do it and see how easy it isn't. It's always easier to nitpick than to create.

    1. Yeah, like nobody here EVER tells artists how to change their music, manage their careers, mix their albums, etc., etc., etc.

    2. Do you believe that the review is so close to perfection that it can't be improved?

    3. I offered constructive criticism to give clarity to a point that needed it.

    4. So, you put forth the oh so original cliche that I should do instead of critiquing. Yet, you have no problem with a writer critiquing the work of Wilson and Yes. Surely, if JK can review TYA, I can review the review. To state otherwise is highly illogical.



  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    appetite whetter [sic]
    "Whet" is the correct spelling.

    http://www.copyediting.com/wet-your-...-your-appetite

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Sorry, but while I am absolutely willing to make corrections, I am afraid I draw the line at rewriting my text...and I hope you understand.

    In terms of content, omitting the mention addition of Fragile, I don't see much difference between what you have written and what I have:



    I am saying pretty much the same thing, albeit in a different order and using "ultimately" rather than "eventually," which afaic are interchangeable. I didn't (and still don't) feel the need to suggest it was an appetite whetter [sic], as I was more interested in identifying that it introduced a number of stylistic signatures, as in epic song-writing, Howe's stylistic breadth as a guitarist and Anderson's ability to write shorter forms that, to some extent, challenged typical pop song-writing convention, which is how I continue after that sentence.

    So, thanks again for pointing out the need to indicate the platinum status wasn't achieved at the time, but beyond that, I'm not prepared to make your other changes as those fall into the category of what you would like to see rather than what I intended to articulate... And I hope you understand. I am absolutely not thin-skinned about folks pointing out errors that need to be fixed, as I think I've demonstrated here at PE a number of times; but when it comes to changing the prose, especially when it alters both voice and intent? Sorry, but I'm just not prepared to go that far.

    Best!
    John

    Yes, I understand. I am not your editor. That is why I phrased it as a suggestion.

    Even if we are saying the same thing, the order is important to how the sentence is interpreted by the reader.

    You open with TYA being Yes' first commercial success. However, while this was true for the UK, it was not true for the US.
    You immediately follow that statement with the industry buzz phrase "certified platinum" (which is more promotion than explanation) and sets up in the reader's mind the notion that TYA was successful in the US until they read the phrase "charting #40". Now, at this point, some readers will miss the chart position and be left with the first, incorrect idea. Others, like me, will read that #40 and experience dissonance trying to reconcile that low chart position with a million in sales. Finally, you end with the UK.

    I think the UK should follow your opening phrase because it is the place where that was true. Then, on to the US. We can't say how TYA performed in that era with the info presented. But, I'm from Philadelphia, and they didn't take off here until "Roundabout". So, TYA in the US was a calling card, an appetite sharpener, a presage, or [insert your own phrase] of the album to come.

    I dropped the "platinum" buzz phrase and reduced "million seller" to a parenthetical because it was not germane to your point.

    "Ultimately" feels, to me, more like an end point. "Eventually" is more like "after some time has passed". You are right in that they are synonyms, but, again, to me, there is a difference.

    I hope that you will consider my ideas.


  15. #15
    Can you say "troll"? If you really think you can do better, why don't you write your own freakin' review?

  16. #16
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Why don't you go listen to some Holdsworth? I hope that you will consider my ideas.

  17. #17
    Member Oreb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post
    Yes, I understand. I am not your editor. That is why I phrased it as a suggestion...
    I hope that you will consider my ideas.
    What the fuck? Review-writing by committee? Did you think jkelman was posting the link here as a way of asking for help?

    Does it matter that this waste of time is what makes a life for you?

  18. #18
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post


    I hope that you will consider my ideas.

    While I think it's totally valid to point out a factual error, I think you're taking it too far here. John's writing style and reviews are fairly popular with many around here, and I don't think most parties interested in reading John's reviews are concerned with the kind of semantics you're emphasizing. Add that you're coming off like an ass trying to get your point across doesn't help matters.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post
    I know..I said [sic] because while whet is, indeed, a word, I don't believe whetter is
    Last edited by jkelman; 06-08-2014 at 11:26 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post
    Yes, I understand. I am not your editor. That is why I phrased it as a suggestion.

    Even if we are saying the same thing, the order is important to how the sentence is interpreted by the reader.

    You open with TYA being Yes' first commercial success. However, while this was true for the UK, it was not true for the US.
    You immediately follow that statement with the industry buzz phrase "certified platinum" (which is more promotion than explanation) and sets up in the reader's mind the notion that TYA was successful in the US until they read the phrase "charting #40". Now, at this point, some readers will miss the chart position and be left with the first, incorrect idea. Others, like me, will read that #40 and experience dissonance trying to reconcile that low chart position with a million in sales. Finally, you end with the UK.

    I think the UK should follow your opening phrase because it is the place where that was true. Then, on to the US. We can't say how TYA performed in that era with the info presented. But, I'm from Philadelphia, and they didn't take off here until "Roundabout". So, TYA in the US was a calling card, an appetite sharpener, a presage, or [insert your own phrase] of the album to come.

    I dropped the "platinum" buzz phrase and reduced "million seller" to a parenthetical because it was not germane to your point.

    "Ultimately" feels, to me, more like an end point. "Eventually" is more like "after some time has passed". You are right in that they are synonyms, but, again, to me, there is a difference.

    I hope that you will consider my ideas.

    I appreciate all the time you've spent on my piece, honestly. But I do think we're niggling over one relatively small point in a much, much larger piece, and that's why I prefer to leave as-is, and hope you'll respect that, as do I your suggestion, correction and overall attention. I just don't think, in the context of the much larger overall piece it's worth it, and that is said with all due respect and, again, appreciation.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    Good for you! Everybody's an effing editor. I get the same thing with my design work. If you can do better yourself, then go ahead and do it and see how easy it isn't. It's always easier to nitpick than to create.
    To be clear: I am always open to suggestions from folks here and anywhere else, and the comment about the platinum certification was a good one, so I made the adjustment. And I don't consider the OP to be a troll, because he's spent considerable time making his case and, even though I don't see it as being important enough to take aboard, I do appreciate his spending that kind of time making his case.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post

    1. Yeah, like nobody here EVER tells artists how to change their music, manage their careers, mix their albums, etc., etc., etc.

    2. Do you believe that the review is so close to perfection that it can't be improved?

    3. I offered constructive criticism to give clarity to a point that needed it.

    4. So, you put forth the oh so original cliche that I should do instead of critiquing. Yet, you have no problem with a writer critiquing the work of Wilson and Yes. Surely, if JK can review TYA, I can review the review. To state otherwise is highly illogical.


    Just to be clear, I am totally ok with your weighing in...and I appreciate the fact that you offered positive, constructive criticism, and corrected me on a point that needed correcting. I absolutely never feel that my writing is so perfect that it can't withstand scrutiny. My only point is that I think we're naval-gazing on a relative minor point with respect to the order in which the information was provided. It still says what I wanted it to say after I added the "ultimately" to the sentence, and don't feel the other changes are so essential as to require additional editing.

    But, again, I do appreciate your taking the time you have, and I hope you can acknowledge that by making at least one change, I took your constructive criticism seriously. We just disagree on the importance of taking it further, and imhope you can see now that falls int the "agree to disagree" category.

    But I hope you are adopting the tone you have in the above post to folks who are criticizing you for critiquing my review, as I would certainly hope that I've been both open-minded and appreciative of your suggestions. That does not, however, mean I have to agree with all of them.

    I think we've beaten this ol' horse to death at this point, so hopefully we can move on. I never view my writing as perfect, but I do think we're quibbling over a point that is not that key to the overall thrust of the review, which is why I decided to leave it with one correction made (with thanks) and left it at that,

    Best,
    John

  23. #23
    Last word on the subject, at least from me: thanks to those who, in the midst of all this discussion, were kind enough to provide some very kind feedback on this particular review and my writing in general. As always, I really so appreciate it, but I do what to be clear that, if any of you ever find factual errors in my reviews, I absolutely want to encourage you to point them out; I'd rather be right. And I do absolutely appreciate the OP taking the time he did to weigh in.

    So thanks, one and all, whether you had any quibbles or were totally happy with the review as it stood (or, rather, now stands with the OP's correction included).

    Cheers!
    John

  24. #24
    Wasn't this thread about The Yes Album?
    "Young man says you are what you eat, eat well."
    http://www.blissbomb.net/

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Scherze View Post
    Yes, I understand. I am not your editor. That is why I phrased it as a suggestion.

    Even if we are saying the same thing, the order is important to how the sentence is interpreted by the reader.

    You open with TYA being Yes' first commercial success. However, while this was true for the UK, it was not true for the US.
    You immediately follow that statement with the industry buzz phrase "certified platinum" (which is more promotion than explanation) and sets up in the reader's mind the notion that TYA was successful in the US until they read the phrase "charting #40". Now, at this point, some readers will miss the chart position and be left with the first, incorrect idea. Others, like me, will read that #40 and experience dissonance trying to reconcile that low chart position with a million in sales. Finally, you end with the UK.

    I think the UK should follow your opening phrase because it is the place where that was true. Then, on to the US. We can't say how TYA performed in that era with the info presented. But, I'm from Philadelphia, and they didn't take off here until "Roundabout". So, TYA in the US was a calling card, an appetite sharpener, a presage, or [insert your own phrase] of the album to come.

    I dropped the "platinum" buzz phrase and reduced "million seller" to a parenthetical because it was not germane to your point.

    "Ultimately" feels, to me, more like an end point. "Eventually" is more like "after some time has passed". You are right in that they are synonyms, but, again, to me, there is a difference.

    I hope that you will consider my ideas.

    Why should success in the US be the be all and end all of everything? Yes was a British band making headroads in the UK, so clearly this should be the definition of initial commercial success.

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