Romantic Warriors III - Canterbury Tales

[rcarlberg]

I'm sure there isn't the budget to pay for interviews -- these DVDs are shoestring affairs (hello, they're crowd sourcing to finance them!) They might have to pay licensing for any music used, which explains why the first disc was mostly interviews and no music from the classic era was included.

But as was stated, money isn't a factor for artist participation anyway.

The people who participate truly love the genre(s) and love talking about it. Mike and Dave, for some unfathomable reason, do not want to reminisce. Obviously there's more trauma than we've been told, or personal enmity, or disappointment. It's good that they allow their prior contributions to be rereleased, or archival material to be released for the first time. This proves they're not hermits or unaware of their fans' devotion.

But I do hope somebody can change their minds (Wyatt too ). Time is running out. Their memories will die with them if they don't share them with posterity.

[Progulike]

Once again, it isn't about money.

With all due respect Mr. F., if it's not about money, why give your opinion on musicians financial situations?

[rcarlberg]

You know, "personal enmity" makes the most sense to me. There must be some bad blood between former band mates -- this sort of thing happens all the time -- and the participants are trying to remain gentlemen by not talking about who screwed over whom.

If this is the case, it seems to me some careful editing by Jose and Adele could protect the reputations of all parties involved, and other interview comments pertaining to the music and times could be invaluable.

At least, that's my uninformed outsider's guess.

[Progulike]

You know, "personal enmity" makes the most sense to me.

From what I read, it seems Stewart gets on pretty well with his old bandmates. However he and Mr. Ratledge feel about the music, maybe they just got bored of talking about what they did 40-45 years ago?

[Udi Koomran]

Look what I caused... this is why I hesitated on expressing my thoughts

[Poisoned Youth]

Yeah sorry, I didn't mean to imply thay're greedy or anything like that. Would be nice of the musicians got paid though, some of these guys have been badly ripped off by record companies.

I thnk you are overestimating the amount of money these documentaries make, especially these days. This is about documenting history by a couple of fans that happen to be professionals in their field, and (highly likely) not a profit making venture.

And as someone in the same profession as the producers (who also knows the habits of the Prog community), they would be fools to think they could make money from such a project. Bottom line, it's a labor of love and pretty cool that someone is even taking their time to produce it and no money to go around.

Best way to get one of these elusive musicians to get an interview is to appeal to their sense of community and the fact that this pair has released a few docs already. That credibility may help. But in the end, the story can be told without it, even though it is certainly less ideal.

[Poisoned Youth]

With all due respect Mr. F., if it's not about money, why give your opinion on musicians financial situations?

Maybe you are unaware of Steve's contribution to the community. He's better qualified to comment than most here.

[chalkpie]

Look what I caused... this is why I hesitated on expressing my thoughts

Bro - you didn't cause anything. A lot of us are thinking the exact same thing and scratching our heads.

Sorry to beat a dead horse - here's my last 3 shillings on this: You can't give 10-15 minutes of your time for your fans of the past 40+ years? Sorry, pretty lame. It's not like these guys are WWII vets and reliving the pain and nightmares of storming the beaches of Normandy 'fer Christsakes - its a fucking rock band. And your fan base is not exactly in the millions either. Grow a set of nuts, have a little respect for the musicians and music of this beautiful "scene", and give just a little back to the people who have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars over the years on your recordings and live shows and respect you as a musical deity. Are they *that* precious and beyond this music now?

OK, I'm done now.

[Steve F.]

Franke and all,

IMO.

The musicians who decline to participate DO NOT want to comment about this for any number of reasons.

They 'served', as it were. They owe their fans NOTHING further, imo. They made the music; if you enjoy it,great, and if you do not enjoy it, fine, but why do they owe you anything further?

You really want to tell Robert Wyatt to 'grow a set'?? Good for you, but Robert and Mike and Dave DO NOT owe me or you or ANYONE anything, just because they do not want to elaborate on some things that happened 35-45 years ago.

Note: there is a song by Peter Hammill called 'Energy Vampires'; don't let that song be you.

[Steve F.]

Maybe you are unaware of Steve's contribution to the community. He's better qualified to comment than most here.

Thanks Cozy,

I'm sure he's aware. He just thinks he's 'sticking it to the man'.

[Progulike]

Robert and Mike and Dave DO NOT owe me or you or ANYONE anything, just because they do not want to elaborate on some things that happened 35-45 years ago. Note: there is a song by Peter Hammill called 'Energy Vampires'; don't let that song be you.

I'm with Steve F. on that one.

[rcarlberg]

Yeah they don't "owe" it to anyone. But by the same token I agree with Chalkpie's sentiment -- you can't spare 15 minutes to set the record straight? Rick Nelson sang, "If memories are all I sing well I'd rather drive a truck." Okay fine, don't play cruiseships and state fairs, we respect that. But Adele and Jose are doing a fine job of documenting the history, and their job is made harder by every figure who elects not to participate "for personal reasons." It seems to me -- outsider that I am -- that it would be LESS painful to tell the story from your viewpoint so at least you're not misrepresented.

[zombywoof]

I'm curious, with all of this talk of musicians who don't wish to be interviewed, has any attempt been made to talk with Daevid Allen or Hillage? They always seem willing to chat about the Canterbury scene. In fact, this video was my introduction to both Canterbury and Gong -



Between the "Nobody Knows I'm a Lesbian" t-shirt and the witty remarks, I knew I had to have everything these two guys ever appeared on. (Still working on that, by the way )

[chalkpie]

Franke and all,

IMO.

The musicians who decline to participate DO NOT want to comment about this for any number of reasons.

They 'served', as it were. They owe their fans NOTHING further, imo. They made the music; if you enjoy it,great, and if you do not enjoy it, fine, but why do they owe you anything further?

You really want to tell Robert Wyatt to 'grow a set'?? Good for you, but Robert and Mike and Dave DO NOT owe me or you or ANYONE anything, just because they do not want to elaborate on some things that happened 35-45 years ago.

Note: there is a song by Peter Hammill called 'Energy Vampires'; don't let that song be you.

I read you loud and clear Steve. We can disagree and its totally fine. Never heard that piece by PH either, but generally not a fan of VDGG/PH, but I will check out the lyrics so I can read up on these so-called "energy vampires"...or is too late and I'm already infected??!!

[Trane]

With all due respect Mr. F., if it's not about money, why give your opinion on musicians financial situations?

Does the Cuneiform word tell you anything??

Sorry to beat a dead horse - here's my last 3 shillings on this: You can't give 10-15 minutes of your time for your fans of the past 40+ years? Sorry, pretty lame. It's not like these guys are WWII vets and reliving the pain and nightmares of storming the beaches of Normandy 'fer Christsakes - its a fucking rock band. And your fan base is not exactly in the millions either. Grow a set of nuts, have a little respect for the musicians and music of this beautiful "scene", and give just a little back to the people who have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars over the years on your recordings and live shows and respect you as a musical deity. Are they *that* precious and beyond this music now?

From what I know (however few that would be), from the time Ratledge got edged out of his band, he hasn't had anything to do with the band's heritage or exploitation (but Aymeric and Steve would know that much better than lil'ol'me), so the last thing I'd personally do is accuse him of milking the cow dry and not giving anything back...

Most likely, he'd rather shut up than open a can of worms or even hint or have his words deformed to lead to opening that very can of worms (provided there is one, of course)... Remember that there is a whole industry that thrives on raising shit for their own journalistic glories (one example?? Classic Rock: their motto? "All the news that's fit to print.... and more")

Look what I caused... this is why I hesitated on expressing my thoughts

Naah, don't worry about it... it was bound to happen

[Progulike]

>you can't spare 15 minutes to set the record straight? It seems to me -- outsider that I am -- that it would be LESS painful to tell the story from your viewpoint so at least you're not misrepresented.

Maybe you're mistaking boredom for pain. As calyx pointed out, if you've already told the story over and over again in countless interviews, sleeve notes etc etc, there's probably no incentive to keep on doing it. If Ratledge and co. wanted to "set the record straight" (which I doubt anyway), it could be that they'd prefer to do so in a long, detailed memoir or a retrospective CD release, rather than in 10 minutes as a talking head in a DVD featuring a bunch of other musicians.

[Zeuhlmate]

Naah, don't worry about it... it was bound to happen

I started it allready in #4 - blame freedom of speach.

[rcarlberg]

As calyx pointed out, if you've already told the story over and over again in countless interviews, sleeve notes etc etc, there's probably no incentive to keep on doing it.

Okay, but let me ask this (because I really don't know the answer): Was Mike Ratledge more vociferous, giving "countless" interviews and writing sleeve notes, in the past?

[Udi Koomran]

my criticism comes from a different angle
this is a once in a lifetime opportunity were your legacy is being dedicated a exclusive documentary so it astonishes me that DS would not take part cause un like MR he actually cherishes his early achievements and isn't too overly bitter about it
and yes Daevid is a saint when it comes to his fans I have seen this so any times were after an intense gig in a long grueling tour instead of heading backstage or to his hotel room he dedicates himself to his fans
btw - I never new the circumstances that let to Mike R leaving Soft Machine

[Progulike]

Frank Zappa said:

"Being interviewed is one of the most abnormal things that you can do to somebody else. It's two steps removed from the Inquisition."

and (in TV interview)
Interviewer: Would you like to be remembered as 'Frank Zappa, important, serious composer of the 20th century?'
FZ: No.
Interviewer: How would you like to be remembered?
FZ: I don't give a f*** if they remember me at all.

Is it possible the Canterbury guys feel the same way? Would that be OK?

[calyx]

Frank Zappa said:

"Being interviewed is one of the most abnormal things that you can do to somebody else. It's two steps removed from the Inquisition."

and (in TV interview)
Interviewer: Would you like to be remembered as 'Frank Zappa, important, serious composer of the 20th century?'
FZ: No.
Interviewer: How would you like to be remembered?
FZ: I don't give a f*** if they remember me at all.

Is it possible the Canterbury guys feel the same way? Would that be OK?

I'm pretty sure Ratledge could say those exact same words. Now, whether he (or Frank Zappa) is/was lying to themselves saying such a thing, it would take a psychoanalyst (or more) to tell.

[Plasmatopia]

There could be a multitude of reasons why someone doesn't want to be interviewed or play any sort of part in a documentary like this. I don't necessarily think it's possible to draw any solid conclusions about why someone wouldn't want to be part of this doc unless they specifically state the reasons. And I guess if you're prone to second-guessing then you could also decide they weren't divulging the real reason anyway.

The main thing is whether or not enough pertinent/interesting commentary from a large enough group of the major players will end up in the final product.

At work recently a sales guy brought in some video blogger (who does metal cutting videos) and was showing him around our company. They wanted me on the video but I refused. I'm just not comfortable being under a microscope like that...to me it feels exactly like "public speaking", which terrifies me. (Not to mention they just sprang the whole thing on me and there is proprietary stuff in my lab.) Of course someone always has to start making cracks like "what, are you a wanted criminal or something?" So I can identify if someone just doesn't want to be on camera.

[taliesin]

You can't give 10-15 minutes of your time for your fans of the past 40+ years? Sorry, pretty lame. It's not like these guys are WWII vets and reliving the pain and nightmares of storming the beaches of Normandy 'fer Christsakes - its a fucking rock band. And your fan base is not exactly in the millions either. Grow a set of nuts, have a little respect for the musicians and music of this beautiful "scene", and give just a little back to the people who have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars over the years on your recordings and live shows and respect you as a musical deity. Are they *that* precious and beyond this music now?

With attitudes like this among the "fans" why on earth would anybody want to take part? "It's a fucking rock band", "Grow a set of nuts".

Seriously?

[rcarlberg]

btw - I never new the circumstances that let to Mike R leaving Soft Machine

I gather the history of the band was somewhat unsettled.

After differences over the group's musical direction, Wyatt left (or was fired from[5]) the band in August 1971 and formed Matching Mole (a pun on machine molle, French for soft machine. Also said at the time to have been taken from some stage lighting equipment "Matching Mole".). He was briefly replaced by Australian drummer Phil Howard, but further musical disagreements led to Howard's dismissal after the 1971 recording of the first LP side of Fifth (1972) and, some months later, to Dean's departure. They were replaced respectively by John Marshall (drums) and, for the recording of Six (1973), Karl Jenkins (reeds, keyboards), both former members of Ian Carr's Nucleus, and The Softs' sound developed even more towards jazz fusion.

In 1973, after the release of Six, Hopper left and was replaced by Roy Babbington, another former Nucleus member, who had already contributed with double bass on Fourth and Fifth and took up (6-string) electric bass successfully, while Karl Jenkins progressively took over the role of band-leader and main composer. After they released Seven (1973) without additional musicians, the band switched record labels from Columbia to Harvest. On their 1975 album Bundles, a significant musical change occurred with fusion guitarist Allan Holdsworth adding guitar as a very prominent melody instrument to the band's sound, sometimes reminiscent of John McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra, setting the album apart from previous Soft Machine releases, which had rarely featured guitars. On the last official studio album Softs (1976), he was replaced by John Etheridge. Ratledge, the last remaining original member of the band, had left during the early stages of recording. Other musicians in the band during the later period were bassists Percy Jones (of Brand and Steve Cook,[6] saxophonists Alan Wakeman and Ray Warleigh, and violinist Ric Sanders. Their 1977 performances and record (titled Alive and Well, ironically) were among the last for Soft Machine as a working band.

On the other hand, it was thirty-eight years ago. Hurt feelings should have scarred over by now.

[Progulike]

With attitudes like this among the "fans" why on earth would anybody want to take part? "It's a fucking rock band", "Grow a set of nuts".

As well as being pointlessly insulting, such remarks demonstrate a strange sense of entitlement - "I bought your records, now you owe me / us." Robert Fripp describes this phenomenon as 'consumer rights', and obviously doesn't agree with it! I would think any self-respecting musician who was in two minds about taking part would be totally put off by reading sentiments such as these.

But hey, the documentary marches on, and we already have original members of The Wilde Flowers, Caravan, Uriel, Egg, Hatfield and The North, Matching Mole, Quiet Sun, Gong, National Health, Nucleus and Delivery in there - the glass is half full, right? It's going to be a great DVD.